2009.09.15
How controversial is evolution?
Around the world, evolution is no big deal. In religious, anti-science America, it's a very big deal. So big, in fact, that film distributors are afraid to distribute a British film about Charles Darwin.
The film, called "Creation", is being well received and will be distributed in markets around the world, according to producers. Just not in the good old USA, where only 39 percent of Americans believe in evolution. We have a long way to go with science education in this country.
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Evolution by natural selection is not controversial at all among scientists. Sadly, the "controversy" in the US is a failure of our education system to properly teach evolution. It is one of the most successful scientific theories ever. Every discovery that has followed -- the true age of the earth, DNA, the avalanche of fossils, plate tectonics -- have reinforced its validity. My guess is that most people in this country know nothing of those discoveries. They don't know how we know that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. They don't know how DNA shows not only that all living beings are related, but how we can analyze evolutionary changes that have taken place over millions of years. They don't know about any fossils other than the dinosaurs (and precious few of those). And they don't know what plate tectonics means except that it's somehow related to earthquakes and volcanoes. Regrettably, many in this country wear their ignorance of science as a badge of honor. I suspect that they feel the same about mathematics.
Comment by Jim F. — September 16, 2009 @ 5:53 am
There were some erroneous reports that Mel Gibson's company, Icon Productions, would be distributing the film, but those have been corrected now. It's actually Icon Distribution, which Gibson did once own, but no longer does.
In any event, it looks like there will be a distributor in the US after all.
I don't think this was ever a religious issue, just an economic one. A controversial movie that's sure to get the religious wackos all upset will get distribution if there's a lot of sex and violence, and it's worth the trouble because it will bring in money. A biopic might not, and distributors want to see some evidence that they can make money before they take the risk.
Comment by Rob Miles — September 16, 2009 @ 6:31 am
The problem is that evolution has become its own religion. The Evolutionists want to FORCE their belief on everyone while claiming that anyone who disagrees with them is forcing their belief. You are not allowed to disagree with the Evolution church because it is state-run. That's is why they will not allow differing opinions.
There is only one right way to think in the eyes of the government. As we see, the propaganda organs are willing to support that group-think by labeling any dissent as "anti-science".
Comment by Henry — September 16, 2009 @ 8:05 am
Let me jump off my soap box and say Rob, you're 100% right. Not too much sex and violence in the life of Charles Darwin. And not too much room for whiz-bang CGI effects. Sorry for the tirade. Thanks for bringing me back down to earth.
Comment by Jim F. — September 16, 2009 @ 8:15 am
If this topic were raised here by anyone else it would (justifiably!) be attacked as flame bait based on the very well known er "outlook" on the world held by so many regular posters.
Just what is it you intend to achieve by this?
Comment by MrRational — September 16, 2009 @ 8:28 am
oh...my....gosh... my cat actually came up to the keyboard and started pressing keys. I think it is eveolving into something that will be able to create a blog, or type an essay, or look up information on Al Gore's Internet.
Oh shoot, wait a min, for it to truly be evolution, the cat would have to have invented a keyboard, and the materials used to make it, and develop more workable appendages to put the materials together.
Im sorry, i thought for a moment that there was some truth to this evolutionary stuff. If you will excuse me, i need to go assist my cocker spaniel with some arc-welding he has decided to take up in the garage.
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 8:46 am
@2 That's great news, Rob. Thanks for the link. I hope it pans out.
Comment by C. Trejbal — September 16, 2009 @ 9:05 am
Jim F: I wrote my post before I'd seen yours, so it wasn't a response to your soap-boxing. Personally, I thought you were right on the money, and along come Henry and Marked Man to prove your point for you.
"Evolution" is not a religion, Henry, it's settled science. There is still plenty to discover in regards to Evolution, but it's not a matter of "belief", it's a matter of knowledge. You can bemoan labelling dissent as "anti-science" if you want, but when it comes to people denying Evolution, it IS anti-science.
Marked, I won't even try to explain to you why your post displays your utter lack of comprehension of Evolutionary Theory. We've seen this from you before, and you resist any attempts to enlighten you. I see no reason to think that will change any time soon.
Comment by Rob Miles — September 16, 2009 @ 9:10 am
Yeah Rob i dont know... it must have been some bad gas i evolved from...
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 9:27 am
Is the "Science of Evolution" anything like the "Science of Global Warming?"
Also post #1 "It is one of the most successful scientific theories ever." How is that "Settled Science?"
Comment by Walker — September 16, 2009 @ 9:36 am
"Evolution" is not a religion, Henry, it's settled science."
Of course it is when you take a fundamentalist evolutionary world view. You can't possibly be wrong. Evolution happens except when it doesn't. We all evolved from germs by a completely random process. Any minute now, a pod of dolphins will build an MRI machine. We just happened to beat the lemurs to the moon. If you have faith in that belief, live into it.
Comment by Henry — September 16, 2009 @ 9:42 am
Why is it so hard to just let people be who believe in Creation? Just let them be...
BTW - I do believe in the THEORY of Evolution....it's not scientific fact just yet...
Comment by Danny — September 16, 2009 @ 9:46 am
Ah the usual cast of characters in our ongoing discussion. Marked Man, I promise that I'm going to read one of your books. I'll even buy it directly from you if you get a bigger cut. You just might persuade me to believe in magic after all.
Henry...There's a ton of different opinions about evolutionary processes in the scientific community and the scientific process will ultimately determine which are valid and which aren't. What science won't accept or opinions without evidence or those that fly in the face of physical laws.
I look forward to seeing this movie. From what I've read, it's really more about the relationship between Darwin and his wife and how they managed to have deep loving relationship despite her deep religous belief and his great doubts.
Comment by Mike Scott — September 16, 2009 @ 10:06 am
Ah, Mike Scott, i would love to just simply give you one of my books, comrade, but you will have to wait.
You see, being a man of limited means in this nasty nasty earth-shattering recession we are all mired in, I firmly believe that if we came from rocks and gas, (out of the billions and billions of possibilities of how things could have physically changed over the years and out of the tens of thousands of species who all evolved from the same thing, we are the only ones who have managed to evolve into organisms that can invent different languages to communicate, invent methods of writing communication down, invent methods of distributing, editing, categorizing, even build buildings solely for the purpose to hold these writings).... well, then if i wait long enough, perhaps there will be other organisms that evolve that can help me out with the editing and distributing of my books.
My two cats and my dog have evolved enough to beg me for food, come to me for attention, and throw up on my floor. It should only be a few more years before they can drive trucks or operate forklifts as well, correct??
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 10:27 am
Henry@#11
There you go with fundamentalist evolution myth #1: Evolution is a random process. It's not. Here's a quote from a PBS site that answers some common question about evolution:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat01.html
"Evolution is not a random process. The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all. The survival and reproductive success of an individual is directly related to the ways its inherited traits function in the context of its local environment. Whether or not an individual survives and reproduces depends on whether it has genes that produce traits that are well adapted to its environment. "
You don't have to believe this process produced the world as we know it today, but there's nothing about natural selection that says it's random.
Comment by Mike Scott — September 16, 2009 @ 10:31 am
Thank you for that from the network that also brought us the snuffle-upagus...
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 10:48 am
@16 - That's hilarious. HA HA.
Comment by Walker — September 16, 2009 @ 10:59 am
"My two cats and my dog have evolved enough to beg me for food, come to me for attention, and throw up on my floor."
Best. Quote. Today.
Comment by Danny — September 16, 2009 @ 11:03 am
Okay evolution is real people... i found proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXo3NFqkaRM
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 11:57 am
ya know, NO ONE really knows...
Comment by pammala — September 16, 2009 @ 12:31 pm
#15,
Oh yeah. PBS is a centrist network without an agenda.....
anything they have to say must be a fact.
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 12:34 pm
Pamala #19
LOL, and good point.
We are here. Why does it matter how we got here?
It is so funny that all of these fossil theory people say that the fossils are there that provide the evidence of evolution when they actually do exactly the opposite.
There is no fossil record linking the trilobite to man. None.
There is no anthropological evidence linking man to even cro-magnon or Neanderthal. None.
It is what one BELIEVES. And BELIEFS shouldn't ever be taught as facts....
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 12:42 pm
Bob H
You need to have more faith in Evolution. Once you have faith, you will see that it is true. Asking for evidence shows a lack of faith and is anti-science. Don't fall for that trick. Just believe.
Comment by Henry — September 16, 2009 @ 1:15 pm
Good grief, even the Pope agrees with evolution. They Bible talks about devils, witches, spirits and lots of things that can't be proved and in many cases-believed in only as an expanation for occurances that the science of the time could not explain.
We can explain how and why things happen today. We can give real, rational, scientific facts that explain and we have learned that when something happens that we do not understand, we can study, test to find the reason. We do not have to use magic and make believe for an explanation.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
Richard,
Where has the pope ever diasgreed with what was written in the Bible? Link?
Here are the first lines of the Apostles creed for you:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Not a word in there about evolution. The pope recites this creed every day.
I do not think the pope agrees with evolution.
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 1:33 pm
Throughout History, man has used religion to control and to explain. For much of history, religion acted as a control over leaders to provide morality and limit their abuse of power. However, there have been times when religion has joined with the leaders to rule over mankind. During these times, when religion and power were used to control mankind rather than to protect, mankind has been abused with wars, poverty, and the growth of the wealthy at the expense of the common man. The killing of Jesus was the result of such a conspiracy, the fall of the Roman Empire, the rise of Muslim Nations, the Dark Ages, the control of 17th and 18th European centuries, the rise of nazi Germany. Keeping religion and Gov't separate was the greatest gift of the founders of our Nation. It is all that provides limits on the leaders and keeps the two powers separated.
Evolution vs creationism is great discussion. But it is for our worship services and laboratories to sort out, keep it out of our Gov't.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 1:35 pm
The Pope announced within the last three or four years that he accepted evolution. I don't remember the exact time, but if you search your News you will find it. It may have been the previous Pope and the current one may not agree, but since both are infallible, I can't argue with either.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 1:38 pm
The current pope on evolution:
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
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He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”
Comment by Dan Radmacher — September 16, 2009 @ 1:40 pm
FWIW, my dog said he will not spend his hard earned money on going to see such a flick. He would rather invest it in growth, international, and aggressive growth mutual funds... he also said he just wishes his species had evolved to invent those things... not to just be able to lick themselves.
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 1:45 pm
28 i guess 'everything' came from some form of intelligence or it would not be to begin with..things just dont appear and be, they are created. but like i said before, no one knows but it is an interesting thing to ponder. as for myself i lean toward intelligent design...even the big bang had to come from some thing or it wouldnt have banged
Comment by pammala — September 16, 2009 @ 1:48 pm
Thank you Dan for the facts.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 1:50 pm
@30 Pammala, that hasn't been a good argument for a long time.
Comment by C. Trejbal — September 16, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
Mark, dogs have been too smart to invest in mutual funds.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
The Pope believes in Creation as well. So let's teach both
Comment by Henry — September 16, 2009 @ 1:54 pm
@33, yeah, but he is in it for the long-term. He also understands that if he is hungry, he needs to get up and go to work.
He IS a rare breed in this day and age... lol
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
BTW, Richard, he wanted me to point out that your website linked to your display name doesnt work... even if you add the .com to the end of it.
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 2:01 pm
Bob H @#22
Well, actually, in the chase of Neanderthals, there's actual DNA evidence that links them and us to a common ancestor. That was actually extracted in about 1997. But what do you mean there's no anthropolocial evidence linking use to Neanderthals and Cro Magnons. You don't think these ancestors were, in some respects, human? Neanderthals made tools, lived in social groups and apparently cared for their elderly. They took time bury their dead and preserve artificats of life in their burials. They created simple art. What about the beautiful cave drawings from the Cro Magnon era? Surely you recognize something creative and uniquely human in these prehistoric masterpieces. Between the physical evidence (DNA) and the obvious human qualities of our ancestors, where do you come you some up with statements like "no evidence" and "NONE".
You are completely wrong about the Pope and Catholicism's position on evolution. The Apostle's creed is a statement of faith that he may well recite every day, but the official position of the Catholic church is that evolution is probably the way things got to be the way they are.
Comment by Mike Scott — September 16, 2009 @ 2:10 pm
There is as much evidence that neanderthals made those tools as there is evidence that the tools themselves evolved from gases that came from nowhere...
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
37
Human traits is not being human. The sea otter uses tools to open mollusks to get his meal. Does that make it human? Where is the fossil record linking Neanderthal to Homo sapiens? You know, from this, to this, to homo sapiens... Doesn't exist. Fossils from 160 million years ago exist but nary a one from 40,000 or even 10,000 years ago that shows any archaeoligical evidence linking humans and Neanderthals. Don't you find that odd?
Actually, from what I have seen on it the DNA evidence is to the contrary. The very little DNA evidence remaining from a Neanderthal that was testable (a bone fragment from a cave) was not working out because there was so much other DNA on it from it being handled over thousands of years that they couldn't tell which DNA was the Neanderthal's. But, I am sure you have links on this you can share. Or maybe it is a belief of yours?
Link on the second paragraph of your post? And I asked for where the pope disagreed with the Bible. Show me where the pope said the Bible is wrong.
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
Mark, my dog must have changed dmy web site to keep me out of trouble. I will double check it and get him straight.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 2:33 pm
32 oh but of course if you say so
Comment by pammala — September 16, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
Mark, unfortunately, I have not been to that web site in a while and it has problems. I have removed it until I quit wasting my day here and get back to work like my dog. He really does get to the office before me and stays the whole day. Although, I had thought he had eveolved to be smarter than that.
As for Neanderthalls, all documentarys I have seen indicate that they are a separate human spiecies that died off as they could not compete with the changing climate and homo sapiens.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 2:39 pm
@40 LOL Richard, my dog, who is evolving into a business consultant, says "Arf, that wouldnt be good for business if no one can find you on Al Gore's Internet"
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
I will have to tell Charlie, my dog, about this being AL Gore's net. Charlie has been taking improper credit for yers.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 2:51 pm
What, you mean other species havent evolved to create amazing things like the Internet, or computers, or steel, or anything?
You mean our abilities are one out of billions of possible outcomes that were equally evolvable from tens of thousands of other species?
I so cannot break that news to him, im glad he hasnt evolved the ability to read yet...
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 3:06 pm
I am not sure if I evolved from Charlie or he from me. As for what humans created, it is arguable as to our success. As for Charlie, he has a pretty good life - eating, sleeping, and reading the Net. Although the neutering does not bode well.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 3:22 pm
Actually,
The scientists have been stumped over homo sapiens and are still stumped. We suddenly showed up on the planet like 10,000 to 12,000 years ago, seemingly out of thin air. There is no fossil record at all of how it happened. And they all know that homo sapiens is too advanced to have been an evolutionary product of 10,000 years or even 40,000 years ago (for you Neanderthal evolutionists out there). Evolution doesn't happen that quickly, even Louis Leakey recognized this. Of course, both Cro-magnon and Neanderthal too showed up out of thin air as there is no fossil record for them beyond 40,000 years. Personally, I believe (note this is a belief!) that God made them both. They were precursors of the homo sapiens. The Bible has many references of God destroying and starting over and I believe this was one of His experiments that He wasn't satisfied with and eventually settled on a being made in His image.
One fact cannot be denied, and that is that never in the geological history of this planet has any species ahowed up like homo sapiens has, and then proceeded to completely dominate it in such a short period of time after its arrival. Something about the divine spark.
Some scientists who don't believe in God speculate that there was possibly some colonization from another galaxy. And they point to ancient signs like Stonehenge in support.
The bottom line is there is 100 things scientists don't know for every 1 fact they do know. Neither evolution or creation can be proved based on the evidence. Whic is maybe what the pope was saying.
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 3:43 pm
richard #46
You violated Charlie's animal rights to reproduce! I won't tell PETA though if you won't.....
Comment by Bob H — September 16, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Bob@#39
I can't tell you where the Pope says the Bible is wrong, I can only point out that the Catholic postion on evolution is not consistent with the literal creation story in the Bible. The largest Christian denomination has no qualms with this theory. Here's what Pope John Paul said in 1996"
"Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies – which was neither planned nor sought – constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory"
Dan's already quoted the current Pope's position.
I don't find the fossil record odd at all. Fossils are rare. There will be more and there will be more DNA too.
Comment by Mike Scott — September 16, 2009 @ 3:53 pm
My dog likes the thought of being created by someone who loves him and so do I. He is very glad, and so am I, to know we didnt evolve from gases that came from.......?
Very good post BobH
Comment by Marked Man (Mark) — September 16, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
47 We must be watching different Discovery Channels. My readings and watching indicate a long geological history of homo sapiens and more discovered all the time. DNA analysis also indicates the same. As for domination, we have indeed taken the planet and molded it, I'm just not sure whether it has been for the good or bad of the planet and all of its species. Not that I'm a tree hugger by any means, I just have troble brething carbon monoxide and sulphur. Perhaps we will have time to adapt to that as well.
As for your beliefs, I think that is wonderful for you and I hope that no one here or any other place tries to dissuade you from them. That's the great thing about the USA, you can believe as you wish and even if I don't believe the same, I can be proud and happy that you have stong convictions and I would fight for your right to have them.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 4:23 pm
#48 Unfortunately, Charlie was not in a position to say much about the situation. He has acceted the situation and only occasionally brings it up with a sharp tooth to my groin.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
#49 Wow, was it really 1996. I thought it was only three or four years ago. I am definitly getting old.
Comment by Richard — September 16, 2009 @ 4:29 pm