Stop building Blacksburg High

Posted March 18, 2012

It’s been two years since the collapse of the Blacksburg High School gym roof. During these two years, numerous discussions have taken place about whether to repair BHS or build a new school.

While the gym was the only part of BHS to collapse, advocates seized upon the opportunity to push for a new school.

Large sums of money were spent for structural engineering firms to determine if the rest of the building would be safe to house students. The engineering and other experts concluded that the building could be made safe for approximately $15 million, which included the $5.5 million insurance money for a new gym.

That was not what the new-school zealots wanted to hear. The pressure was intensified to jack up the repair costs so a new school would make financial sense. Even members of the board of supervisors caved in to favor a new building, citing the inflated repair estimates.

Site and foundation construction has begun on the new high school, and it will be in operation in 2013 or 2014. There will be rejoicing and an open house, but the tremendous debt will be unbearable for decades on Montgomery County taxpayers.

It should be noted that some citizens who favor the new school will not be living in the county in a few years to pay the bill.

Many people, including school employees, were reluctant to speak publicly against excessive spending for a new high school for fear of being labeled anti-education or of receiving reprisals from their employers. They are now, however, speaking out against the high tax rates that will be required to pay the mortgage.

The county’s debt level will be a nearly $300 million financial albatross on residents. School employees should expect to be shortchanged in salaries and benefits for years. Their salary increases and perks have now been committed to bricks and mortar.

It didn’t have to be this way.

The spend-now-and-worry-later mindset has forced many state and municipal governments into default, especially at the city and county levels. Could it happen here? Only time will tell.

There is no worse time than the present to burden county residents with a tax increase. It’s time to suck it up and be content with the finances that are available to the county.

Any tax increase will raise havoc with the county real estate industry. Real estate investments, prices and rents will take a tremendous hit.

There still might be time to reconsider the BHS decision. Many communities around the country have halted construction of new schools and other government buildings because of financial constraints.

The Montgomery County Board of Supervisors should explore the possibility of doing the same.

Arne Saari
Saari was Montgomery County Schools superintendent
from 1974 to 1983. He lives in Blacksburg.

79 Comments »

Ah, but then the egos of the Blacksburg parents wouldn’t be fed, and after all, THAT was really what this was all about – Blacksburg parents having a shiny bauble to display to their like minded friends.

Dr. Saari, you make very solid points, but the egos will win this one, even at the expense of the rest of the county. The same Blacksburg parents who so shrilly screamed for their new bauble were also the ones deriding parents in Auburn for wanting an upgrade from their decades old school building. It’s all about the egos.

Comment by abdnva — March 18, 2012 @ 7:54 am
Gee – what a bunch of bitter pills! You don’t think it odd that one of Virginia’s largest communities HAS NO HIGH SCHOOL? And the structural integrity of the part of their school that COLLAPSED is not sound. So, just why does that make people bad? Why such hatred? Perhaps had you been ‘educated’ properly you’d be able to understand the need.
Just like Auburn’s need – equal.

(As for Saari – a grump and a bitter pill for decades).

Comment by LOVE NRV — March 18, 2012 @ 9:40 am
This is perhaps the dumbest letter and most pathetic argument I have ever read.
I can’t stop laughing at the simple minded thinking.

Comment by Dismissed — March 18, 2012 @ 9:44 am
Perhaps if Mr Saari had done his job when he was Superintendent in 1974, and the former Blacksburg High School was being constructed, inspected, and accepted, the structural defects would have been discovered and fixed at that time. As for fixing the former school for $15M, that was no more than a sketchy estimate based on partial studies. Several articles published at the time detailed serious issues with the foundation of the building, and those would cost much more to address.

As for Mr Saari’s claim that “some” current residents will support these expenditures, and then move out of the county, it is a free country. And “some” is vague. Care to quantify that more precisely, Mr Saari? Or do you just specialize in the straw man arguement?

As for abdnva, show me an example of Blacksburg parents deriding the desire of Auburn parents to upgrade their schools. If there was any common thread during the public meetings and online discussions of the options for the schools, it was that the Blacksburg community supported Auburn’s needs, despite the attempts of a Supervisor from the Riner area to prevent consideration of a new BHS.

BTW, I have not had a child in Montgomery County schools since 1995, and I do not expect to move out of the county within the next decade.

Comment by Bill — March 18, 2012 @ 10:53 am
Mr Saarri, you should change the spelling of your name to “Sorry” because you should apologize for setting the stage for the where we are today with tha “Saari-ful” situation in education spending and infrastructure in this county. You are as much to blame for the collapse of BHS as anyone. Your obvious mismanagement does NOT give you a voice in denying a viable solution to the problem today. Being an old tax grump like the rest of the people complaining about covering the costs of our decaying infrastructure only paints you in a worse light. The courageous correct decision of the supervisors and schools board will in the long run prove correct. Let it go! You see another chance to get your pathetic voice heard and we aren’t buying it!

Comment by Mike — March 18, 2012 @ 12:58 pm
Mr. Saari’s letter raises an interesting question: Why are we building all of these schools?

To anyone who has studied the school facilities in Montgomery County, the neglect, poor planning, and shameless disregard for the safety of county children is obvious.

But do we need 3 new schools?

The facts show it was possible to build a new Blacksburg High School without raising taxes or raising taxes barely at all. This crisis could have been resolved early (with insurance money, the special bonds the Governor approved, etc.) and the children in Blacksburg could have been back in the home school already.

Of course, after hundreds of hours of meetings, I know that a decision to only address the Blacksburg problem would have required delaying constructing two new schools in Riner.

Instead of just fixing the Blacksburg situation, several members of the Board of Supervisors and School Board bullied every Blacksburg-area elected official and parents into accepting constructing two new schools in Auburn – FIRST!

In fact, the only school employees that I heard speak negatively about the projects were Auburn teachers who wondered aloud to me why the county was not simply fixing the Blacksburg High School problem.

All of the Blacksburg teachers that talked to me privately told me that in the end BHS would “get the short-end of the stick.”

And, in the end, they were correct.

The crisis in Blacksburg was a great excuse to build two new schools in Auburn. Blacksburg’s children would have to wait.

The School Board accelerated the planning in Auburn. As a result, when the construction budgets needed to be cut, almost all of the cuts – especially on the interior – had to come from the Blacksburg High School. This means that in the new BHS – the halls are narrower, the class rooms smaller, and a facility designed to house 1,200 students will ultimately house 1,600.

It seems nothing will meet the sacred Montgomery County Public Schools Facilities standards. My favorite design change: the BHS students will now play basketball during gym in the driveway dodging buses and other vehicles!

Mr. Saari’s letter demonstrates a sad disregard for the facts and a blatant example of the continued bigoted approach to the children of the Blacksburg that is so persuasive in this county.

Somehow, since Blacksburg High School is in a university town – we are snobs.

What a crock!

I have sat through many, many public hearings where snide comments about Blacksburg – such as the laugher at one School Board member at comments of the Blacksburg track coach – are applauded.

No one wants to pay more taxes, but responsible citizens accept an appropriate level.

So, is a tax increase for 3 new schools appropriate?

That’s a good question.

The letter in today’s paper has so many factual inadequacies as to unworthy of a point-by-point response.

Anyone who believes that the tax increase is related to the desire of the Blacksburg parents to have some special school facility has not attended a single meeting of the School Board and seen the needs of children of Blacksburg cast aside by those who seek to make certain more than sufficient funds exist for the children of Auburn.

Right now, we just want a building.

In fact, anyone who tries to pit facilities against teacher salaries is only attempting to confuse the issue (or is already confused themselves).

As someone said to me, “at some point the people of Blacksburg will stop allowing the rest of the county to freeload on our tax base” or the residual impact of the student body that lives in our Town.

Yes, we have a quirky populace.

Sometimes we take time to debate subjects that cause people in the other parts of the county to scratch their heads in bewilderment.

It is the special nature of a university town – a university town that creates the need for the commerce that occurs in Christiansburg and creates the job opportunities for people who want to work at Virginia Tech, but live in rural Montgomery County.

I too laugh sometimes at the debates we have in Blacksburg. Yes, only in Blacksburg could a debate over a traffic circle nearly bring the town to a standstill!

But, I recognize that the same engine that drives these debates – and creates such a diverse community of opinions – provides 27,000 students who shop, rent, live, and creates jobs (direct and indirect) for thousands of people in Montgomery County.

Whether this tax increase is the right step is an appropriate topic of discussion – based upon facts. Subjecting the children of the Blacksburg strand to substandard facilities – or no facility – is not.

Attacking the children of Blacksburg and calling them and their parents names is not – especially when so much of the economic success of Montgomery County depends upon the Blacksburg community.

There, I said it. It needed to be said.

Every part of Montgomery County is special, and no part should call the other part names. But facts are facts: the greater Blacksburg community pays more than its fair share of expenses in this county – not much of the Blacksburg community is zoned agriculture the last time I checked.

If the Tea Party in the New River Valley desires a debate on the subject, I will debate them, anywhere, anytime, any forum.

Our children – in all of Montgomery County – deserve nothing less.

And, I for one am prepared for starting fighting for the children of Blacksburg again.

All of the “new building zealots” (actually that would make a great bumper sticker) that I am aware of thought this battle was over when the Blacksburg parents realized we were going to have to accept a substandard building and agree that the needs of replacing the Riner community’s existing buildings were much more important than any high school building in Blacksburg.

The new BHS will likely be inadequate the day it opens – at least by MCPS standards; but, we have watched in amazement as some outstanding builders and architects have done their best to save the facility prepared for the education of our children.

If Mr. Saari is correct, apparently, we’re about to have this new building debate again. If it’s time to re-visit these issues – when is that meeting? I’m game.

I and many Blacksburg area parents would like to be there. The last time, we all supported the AHS and AMS projects – but as for me, if we are going to revisit this, this time I’ll only be concerned about doing what’s right for Blacksburg. I already been played once. Personally, I won’t make that mistake again.

Don’t get me wrong, I am glad the Riner community is getting two new schools, but I hope they show up at the BOS and SB to urge the tax increase to pay for them. If they don’t, then maybe the need isn’t that great after all.

Jeff Mitchell

Comment by Jeff Mitchell — March 18, 2012 @ 2:04 pm
Excellent letter, Mr. Saari! As you can see, most of the tax payers that want this debt for many years to come, at ANY cost, only can start the name calling. Blacksburg High School should have been repaired. Great comment abdnva! I can’t stop laughing at all the other ones!
Building a NEW Blacksburg High, a BITTER PILL (tax) For DECADES!

Comment by b.o.h.i.c.a. — March 18, 2012 @ 2:07 pm
OK, I’m baffled by the “some citizens who favor the new school will not be living in the county in a few years to pay the bill” comment. Seeing as how the bill will be paid by property taxes (thanks to the supervisors who burden homeowners with the bulk of the bill; we can only hope Backcountry.com and the intermodal terminal begin a shift away from that status), the people who move into the homes vacated by those citizens will still be paying the bill. The alternative, not having a high school in Blacksburg, or continuing to have an inaqduquate building, could be that there won’t be people moving into those vacant homes — but there would still be taxes assessed on the property and collected at some point. So this is really a hollow argument here.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 18, 2012 @ 2:40 pm
If anyone reading this was at the first meeting of the Montgomery County Board Supervisors on August 23, 2010, several months after the gym roof fell in at Blacksburg High School, I believe they would understand why we really can’t build a new Blacksburg High School. Mr. Cortney Rodgers, from Davenport and Company LLC ,the company who has advised Montgomery County on their financial issues for several years, did a very good job explaining that if we borrowed the $124 million that we would be in unknown territory as we would be servicing the second highest debt in Virginia at 171/2 percent. The first highest debt service was a county in Norhern Virginia(I regret I didn’t get the name, I am not sure he gave it). Mr.Rodgers explained that if we borrowed the $124 million and then had bad luck in the county and needed more money, we probably wouldn’t be able to borrow it. So, last week, an outside classroom at Auburn caught on fire, while the students were in class. And Auburn has other old mobile classrooms which seem risky for student and teacher occupancy.Bill and Mike, blaming Mr. Saari is
an easy way to get back to spending money we don’t have, on buildings we
don’t need. All of Montgomery County School students are well housed and
should be able to learn without any trouble at all. I guess the students i
n Auburn are an exception. heir outside classrooms burned. With the studen
ts still inside the old mobile unit. There are more old mobile units ther
e, also. A lot of money was spent on the school on College St in Christiansburg for the Blacksburg Middle school students. I don’t think the
y have to travel much further to school now than they did when in
Blacksburg.
I believe there are two things here that are definite. A lot of people, most of them in Blacksburg,want to borrow the millions to have what they conceive as proper schools. Then, there is the fact that the tax payers of Montgomery County could be unable to pay the tax increase that would make the ones wanting new modern looking buildings satisfied.
I have noticed that many localities are very proud of their wonderful old brick structures and are keeping them in good repair so they can continue to be useful. Why can’t this be done here? Give the property owners a break,please, and don’t put the county in financial jeopardy

Comment by Lynda Nelson — March 18, 2012 @ 3:11 pm
Mitchell, the lawyer, we realize you would have no problem with paying your taxes, but you should be concerned with others that live on fixed incomes or have no jobs. I guess that makes you a 1%er. Those that are opposed to this stupid tax increase are game too!

Comment by b.o.h.i.c.a. — March 18, 2012 @ 4:09 pm
Hey – bend-over-here-it-comes-again (which I assume is your post name) . . . . .only this time it’s more facts.

go back and re-read my post.

if we only built one school and took care of the Blacksburg students who don’t currently have a school, we wouldn’t be raising all of these taxes.

And I see you resorted to name calling as well. No, I don’t think I am a 1%’er – whatever MSNBC says that means today. I am very concerned about people that live on fixed incomes (like my parents)or that have no jobs. Both of these groups needed an educated populace to work and provide the benefits they recieve and deserve, right?

JM

Comment by Jeff Mitchell — March 18, 2012 @ 6:33 pm
Jeff, the Auburn people had been waiting through a lot of other building and they just had one of their outside classrooms catch on fire last week with the students inside. There are more outside class rooms at Auburn they are old and and unsightly and don’t seem too clean, and you are confusing a lot of property owners who can’t or shouldn’t have to pay more taxes ,with tea party people,who formed some sort of organization months ago which is just wrong, incorrect and surely most of us know the difference

Comment by Lynda Nelson — March 18, 2012 @ 7:47 pm
Lynda,
So you are saying that the people in Riner should be proud of their old building? It sounds like you are advocating that no new schools be built in Riner. Looks like the people asking for millions in taxes, for no reason, are those in Riner….if adding new mobile units is all that is needed in Riner, then that should be an easier fix and we should support building a new BHS.

Did you imply that the one mobile unit catching fire is equal to the gym collapse?

I would like to hear from those that ride the bus from Blacksburg to Christiansburg each day, just to see if it is just as short of a ride from Bburg to Cburg as it is from Bburg to Bburg.

I have no children in the local school system however I would feel much better sending my child to a school built in the ~20s, with better construction, than the shoddy collapsing construction of the 70′s.

Comment by Mutt — March 18, 2012 @ 9:31 pm
Interesting how this once again is being made out to be a “Blacksburg” vs. everyone else. When engaging in this type argument, it is easier to call people names and deal in broad generalities instead of looking neighbors in the eye and dealing with facts. This isn’t just a “Blacksburg” issue. No, the Blacksburg Strand of Montgomery County Public Schools isn’t limited to the Town of Blacksburg, but actually covers a large portion of the county to include Prices Fork, McCoy, Brush Mountain, Mt. Tabor Rd., the Ellett Valley, and Merrimac.

It is also getting tiresome to hear the same old “people on a fixed income can’t afford to pay taxes” line that those who don’t like to pay taxes trot out every year. They bandy it about but never seem to back it up with actual figures of how many people are on a fixed income in the county, just what that fixed income might be, and why they haven’t taken advantage of the tax relief programs that the county offers for those on a fixed income. Either produce the facts or drop the lie.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 19, 2012 @ 12:11 am
I didn’t realize, Mr. Mitchell, that the Riner area is “in fact, not” getting two new schools…I believe the plans called for one of the existing schools to be renovated. Its also funny that you talk about some people not having all their facts straight but you’ve posted errors as well. Also you’ve mentioned that it shouldn’t be a “Blasksburg” vs. everyone else mentality but aren’t you the one who brings up everyone else sponging off of Blacksburg’s economy. Also your statement is implying that Blacksburg students are essentially more valuable than other schools’ students because of the zoning areas. Auburn middle school doesn’t currently have a gym and must share gym time with high schoolers. And oh by the way I don’t recall Blacksburg having modular buildings to house their students. Of course this issue is
a hot topic for everyone involved, no one wants to pay more taxes but I do feel my kids are just as important as any Blacksburg students. One last thing, I do agree with you, Mr. Mitchell, that one school should be built, the school that was slated to be built prior to a gym roof’s collapsing. And see no debate is necessary.
d.

Comment by Daniel Guilliams — March 19, 2012 @ 8:12 am
BTW, Jeff, that was the best synopsis of the school problem I’ve read in a long time. The only thing missing was the part about the School Board waiting until May of the year of the February collapse to decide that there was a crisis in Blacksburg, then appointing a secretive committee (that didn’t do anything) to discuss the matter. To bad we don’t have a real newspaper with competent reporters that cover ALL the meetings and report in depth about what is going on. Instead, we have “The Burgs” — which should be “The Cburg” since it has been “All Christiansburg Sports All The Time” since last fall.

Your comment, Jeff, about “BHS students will now play basketball during gym in the driveway” is interesting. The last plans (that were buried on the MCPS web site) showed an auxilliary gym and a huge competition gym with lots of seating. There were also questions on the Facebook group as to why the school needed six locker rooms while there was inadequate academic space (especially with a small auditorium and not much room for the band, chorus and theatre programs). Has this changed and the Raonoke Times just not bothered to report about it? I know there were comments about the halls being made smaller, but did the gym actually get downsized (makes sense, BHS didn’t need something the size of Cassell Coliseum)?

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 19, 2012 @ 8:19 am
Remember, this is the same Blacksburg Community/Strand which has opposed the building of a Walmart and voted down a Sonic because “cars idling would create too much noise and pollution” when in fact there are other fast food chains with drive-thrus which have cars idling when they are pulling up to pick up their meal.

So with this being an example of the decision makers in Blacksburg being inept, I would suggest that those in this specific electorate vote with their minds and wallets as it appears the people; for some reason, are against having an added tax base which would alleviate some of the pressures when it comes to financing public buildings.

Comment by Former VPI Worker — March 19, 2012 @ 9:03 am
It is obvious that an expenditure so huge as building a new Blacksburg High should have been put on a referendum. In that way, whatever the outcome, individual taxpayers would have had a say and those opposed to whatever the final outcome told, “You had the opportunity, and this is the people’s choice.” If we all have to pay, we all should have a say. So many of us have been disenfanchised.

In this economy, nearly no one is getting pay increases. Any pay increases are being more than off-set by spiking prices in things like food, clothing and gas at the pump. It is not a question of “not liking to pay taxes”, simply that our incomes are level-to-declining and the price of everything is increasing. We are almost all “people on fixed incomes”! Pehaps those few who enjoy paying taxes should establish a “New School” collection fund to help out, rather than berate most of us who are experiencing difficulties, because what’s especially sad is that the poorest are always hit first and hit hardest.

It is very disheartening that we will be tied into massive debt that will so stunt Montgomery County’s spending options for so long into the future as this.

Comment by Native American Windsong — March 19, 2012 @ 11:02 am
The taxpayers of Blacksburg provide the county with a huge amount of money, and yet there is so much hatred and resentment. I just don’t understand it. Without our tax contributions, you would all have to find somebody else to hurl your insults at. I notice that the nasty, inappropriate comments are posted by those who are afraid to post their real names. I don’t know if I’m an “ego” who wants a “bauble” to brag about, but I have a bit more integrity than some of these posters.

I agree with everything that Mr. Mitchell says and suspect that he’s spent more time researching the problem than anybody posting here. I would like to add that if anyone were to take another look at the reports provided by expert geologists before the old BHS property was purchased (from a member of the school board, if I’m not mistaken), it might just become clear that no amount of money would ever make that school safe. It’s been sinking into the ground since 1974 and will continue to do so.

In addition to the unstable nature of that property, the standards under which that structure was built were so poor that to try to “restore” it would be flushing tax dollars down the toilet. Everybody’s tax dollars. So let’s just please check your hatred at the door and let’s get on with doing the right thing.

And for what it’s worth, I suggested a fund at the beginning. If one is established, I will gladly and generously contibute.

Comment by Mike Aronson — March 19, 2012 @ 12:18 pm
Thank you, Jeff Mitchell for so eloquently stating the facts. I couldn’t agree more. Montgomery County needs to pay it’s share for educating our children. Times are tough for most people in this country, however perpetuating the cycle of under-funding education is not something anyone should gamble with. I’d certainly prefer not to have my taxes increase, however the future of my children’s education and success in life is paramount.

Comment by Jane Aronson — March 19, 2012 @ 1:29 pm
How many new school buildings were built in Montgomery County between 1974 and 1983? The county has 20 schools and the life cycle of a school is about 50 years, then there should be a new school/replacement every 2.5 years or about 3 replacements during his tenure. How many were replaced?

I’d suggest Arni Saari be investigated for malfeasance if we are now paying for bad decisions made under his tenure.

Comment by Fernando — March 19, 2012 @ 3:48 pm
The outrage over the building size of the new Blacksburg HS is interesting, if misplaced. From the MCPS website, the new Auburn HS will have nearly 500 square feet for every current Auburn student. The new Blacksburg HS will have just over half of that – 257 sf/student. Let me repeat that – the Blacksburg High School will be HALF the size of Auburn on a per-student basis.

Neither strand is scheduled for significant growth over the next ten years by the recent redistricting plan research. The 2021 projected enrollment for Auburn HS will only go up by 24 students. Blacksburg will increase by 32 students. Neither has a projected growth rate of any significance, going out at least 10 years. (see the MCPS redist. report 12/7/2011)

Is it the money? We’re spending $50k per student on the Blacksburg HS, and $98k per student in Auburn, so it would seem we’re getting a better deal in Blackburg. Maybe we should just build out Blacksburg to max capacity and bus the kids from Riner, and skip the Auburn HS entirely – that’ll save $40M right off the top. I’d suggest we do it the other way, but then we’d have to build three new Auburn HS size buildings to house all the kids, and I don’t think we’ve got an extra $80 million to do that.

One question to ask is why are we building such a large Auburn High School? At full capacity of 800 students, Auburn HS is big enough to hold the projected 2021 enrollment of BOTH the high school and middle school grades, and still have 100 student capacity to spare. Then again, we could ask why we built such a large Eastern Montgomery HS, which has projected growth to 342 student in 2021, but has a high school with a capacity of 560. That’s enough to hold all of the middle and high school students in the Eastern strand today.

Regardless, lobbying to stop the BHS as a waste of money is a fools errand. The county, as an organization looking to house and teach almost 10,000 students is more efficiently served by building larger schools in Blacksburg and Christiansburg than spending money in the lower population density areas. I think it’s a noble cause for the county’s residents to pay a bit extra so that students in the rural areas can have good, local schools and I, for one, support the tax increase to continue the local school strands even though they are far more expensive, per student, to build.

Comment by Jordan Truesdell — March 19, 2012 @ 3:54 pm
Gosh, Jordan, there you go using FACTS in this discussion. Don’t you understand that people will only get confused if you do that? Of course, the question has to be asked — why hasn’t this information been brought to light by the school board in an easy-to-understand format and in an easy-to-find location? Navigating the MCPS web site is not something for the faint-hearted and you usually can’t find what you are looking for anyway. If you do, it takes lots of digging, like it appears you were able to do, then it takes additional work to convert gobblety-gook into English. Gee, if we had a real newspaper that had reporters who attended meetings and gathered information before meetings, asked hard questions of board members and administators, dug into these issues, and looked out for the public interest, maybe some of this would show up in print instead of cute pictures of birds and flowers. Thanks for your efforts on our behalf, Jordan, keep up the good work, it is appreciated.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 19, 2012 @ 5:08 pm
Jordan,

You do make an interesting argument. I suspect an answer to your question about why they need to build an Auburn school that is bigger than the projected 2021 enrollment is that the last Auburn HS had to last 75 years, not 50 before being replaced. Also, whoever it is that keeps saying Auburn is getting two “new” schools is either misinformed or lying. They are renovating the old HS to serve as the MS. Now the elites from The Burg can resent that all they want, but just keep in mind that a renovated school was not good enough for them. Also, Blacksburg is getting a new school about 30 years sooner than Auburn did.

Finally, I have a couple of questions for you. First, if Blacksburg isn’t predicted to have more than a 20 or 30 student increase in enrollment by 2021, and the Blacksburg residents aren’t demanding more than what is actually needed, why are parents in B’burg protesting the current school design, saying they need a school that will support far more students than they will actually have?

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/290149

Second, if Blacksburg HAS to have a new school because it would be unsafe to renovate the old one for a fraction of the cost of a new one, why is it safe to leave the Christiansburg High School students in their current school when it had the SAME structural problems with the steel in its design? Given this debt debacle to no end other than to create more vacant classroos in Blacksburg, I suspect the Christiansburg HS kids better plan going to the current CHS, the one that was built the same year as old BHS and has the same design problems as the old BHS, for another 40 years.

Comment by Chuck — March 19, 2012 @ 8:54 pm
Thanks very much, Jordan, for the facts. I’d like to see the response of the anti-Blacksburg zealots to the obvious bias toward building over-sized schools for Auburn and East Montgomery while planning a grossly-undersized high school for the town that provides the most tax dollars for the county. Perhaps Blacksburg should become a city and take care of itself after all.

Comment by Mike Aronson — March 19, 2012 @ 10:05 pm
A great idea came up from several parents in Riner about the possibility of each scool possibly doing their own fundraiser to bring in some money in support of schools. Of course these fundraiserswould have to be a more than one time thing. How does this sound to everyone?

Comment by Daniel Guilliams — March 20, 2012 @ 7:37 am
IF THE COUNTY HAD INVESTED IN AN EDUCATED BUILDING MAINTENANCE CREW WITH VERIFIABLE EDUCATION AND DEGREES FROM A REAL SCHOOL AND NOT THE GOOD OLD BOYS CLUB NEPOTISM DEGREE NOW REQUIRED OF ALL COUNTY EMPLOYEES WE WOULD NOT BE HERE AND THE SCHOOLS WOULD BE IN USEABLE CONDITION.
NEVER MIND THAT THE OLD HIGH SCHOOL WAS BUILT ON A SURFACE FAULT AND THE FACT THAT STORM WATER AND BUILDING ROOF AND LAND DRAINAGE ISSUES WERE IGNORED FOR YEARS ALLOWING THE STRUCTURE TO FAIL.

YEAH WHATEVER IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.,

SO KEEP UP THE NEPOTISM AND THE GOOD OLD BOYS CLUB AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN UNTILL THE REST OF US GET MAD ENOUGH TO TAKE ALL OUR MONEY AND OUR FAMILIES ELSEWHERE TO LIVE AND EDUCATE OUR CHILDREN IN A LESS COSTLY PLACE TO LIVE.

Comment by gstlab3 — March 20, 2012 @ 9:58 am
The new Blacksburg High School should be build and we should not skimp on
size. Virginia Tech is a major employer of this region and Blacksburg
should have an outstanding high school to match the University in order to
attract top-notch faculty. Recruitment will suffer if local schools are
substandard or if the school board is unwilling to provide the resources
necessary to have an outstanding middle and high-school. If that means
building a big enough school, increasing teacher salary (in order to
attract good teachers) and increasing taxes to fund it, so be it.
Top-notch faculty will want top-notch schools for their children or they
will go to another university that provides that environment. This will
cause Virginia Tech to suffer in the long run and not become the top-notch university thatit is capable of becoming.

Comment by SDBlacksburg — March 20, 2012 @ 10:17 am
I also believe that Blacksburg should become its own city so that it can
have more control of its budget and be able to fund the schools adequately.
Then the city of Blacksburg can put its emphasis on education and not rely on the antiquated thinking of the Montgomery County School Board.

Comment by SDBlacksburg — March 20, 2012 @ 10:22 am
Well,I see we have the same groupies on here that yelled for a new giant
school in Blacksburg because they are the best and biggest in the County.
It’s never enough for these people! Even some tag teams of husband and wife.
I agree with the poster that suggest putting a fund together. Time to put
your money where your mouth is! Also, I would love to see Blacksburg become
a City, and lose ALL County revenue. Watch out Blacksburg!

Comment by b.o.h.i.c.a. — March 20, 2012 @ 1:13 pm
Thank you Jordan and Jeff so much for your tireless work on this and for putting out facts. We owe so much to you both for all of your hard work.

Let’s invest in our future and realize gains by this investment.

Comment by Doug Garnett-Deakin — March 20, 2012 @ 3:06 pm
Let’s face the real fact – it was Saari leadership (you all do understand how to pronounce it – ‘sorry’) that got Montgomery County in this predicament.

Christian Trejbal had an excellent title to a recent editorial – “Montgomery County is Cheap” – he meant as in affordable, relative to other localities, but he nailed it, Montgomery County has been cheap for years, deferring the capital needs of the county, and now it has caught up with it.

Pay me now, or pay me later, is how the saying goes. Welcome to later. We should all be Saari that it has come to this.

Comment by Rick H. — March 20, 2012 @ 4:13 pm
The double entendre was intentional. Rick H. is right.

Comment by C. Trejbal — March 20, 2012 @ 6:47 pm
I’ve been Blacksburg resident since 1999. My grown-up children were educated elsewhere. I’m happy to pay extra taxes for good schools in both Riner and Blacksburg. Let’s recognize that what the supervisors and school board face is a ‘perfect storm’– the roof collapse at BHS (as several posters point out, the construction took place when Arne Saari was superintendent, irony multiplied?), the need to undertake the long-needed construction in Riner, the cessation of federal stimulus money, and let’s not forget, an ambitious governor hoping to be a vice-presidential nominee ‘balancing’ his budget by stiffing education in his state. The next generation really matters (duh!), so let’s do all we can for them.

Comment by Kenneth Surin — March 20, 2012 @ 9:03 pm
This debate about the proposed OPPRESSIVE tax rate increase is bordering on insanity. It has, however, presented a great opportunity for the citizens of Montgomery County to attack anyone who does not live where they live, work where they work, and believe what they believe. Let’s get real people!

According to the 2010 Census, the average value of an owner occupied home in Montgomery County was $187,600. The proposed 12 cent increase/$100 = $225.12 annual increase. That works out to be $18.76/month. For ease of numbers, let’s just round that up to an extra $20.00 per month. I bet an average family of four would be hard pressed to get a meal at a fast food chain for under $20 but lets just go with that. Still with me?

The anti-tax crusaders are angry because they will not be able to eat out 12 times a year at a fast food restaurant because they have to pay for their children’s education. There has been a lot of talk about hard times, sacrifice, going-without, and such on this Blog but when push comes to shove, it’s more important to have the right to fast food as opposed to public education. To me, this is a choice for all the citizens of the county to make a hard choice: hamburger, fries, & a coke OR an educated community….

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 20, 2012 @ 9:50 pm
StanZ1987 – your post above is full of errant facts. For some senior citizens and others on a fixed income, it is not about eating out – it is about eating AT ALL! It is the difference in paying for their prescriptions they need, or eating something besides soup and saltines. Get your head out of your butt and pay attention to the facts. I am not saying everyone in the county is in this predicament, but many of our seniors, who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes are. Their are also people on disability that $20 a month makes a difference in their lives. Since you think $20 a month is so insignificant, put your money where your mouth is – I’ll get you a list of people who can’t afford it, and you can chip in an extra $20 per month on their behalf. How’s that sound to you? Yeah, I thought so……

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 9:18 am
@ matt H – I pulled the info off the census page and used a calculator, maybe I pushed some wrong numbers BUT I checked things twice. An assumption was made regarding the cost of a family of four eating at a fast food restaurant. Sorry I didn’t poll them to accurately present the true cost but my point is valid even if you do not agree.

The average cost of a house was an AVERGAGE. Some people will pay more, some less. I’d like to think the cost of the house in some ways reflects the owners income and therefore ability to pay an increase. That’s called a GRADUATED rate.

My point, since you obviously missed it and have decided to name call and continue your mission to make others (people not residing in Montgomery County) pay for YOUR schools is that the amount of increase is minimal when compared to overall annual costs for people. Secondly, every day people make choices and sacrifices due to personal budget constraints. For me, I don’t have cable so I can use my money for other things. In the case of the schools, maybe people NEED to consider what the cost is for having the schools and what it REALLY equates too.

Most of the seniors you believe you represent are baby boomers who had their schools paid for by the previous generation (including folks who already had grown children). All of the sudden, it’s a huge travesty to dare think that a new generation of folks need to help pay for the schools now, come on, each generation has its responsibilities and need to step up to the plate.

I’m thankful there are people out there like you waving the banner for all the folks who have so little money but there are two facts. The percentage of the oppressed you are talking about is a small percentage, really. To hear you speak, every person in this county is going to be forced to choose between a tax bill and a grocery bill. Secondly, all people make foolish mistakes and choices with their money from time to time. This is the time for people to realize that THEY have to pay for their schools and that MIGHT mean they will have a little less income to spend on things that may be considered by most reasonable, rational folks as discretionary.

But than again, I guess the American way (according to the tea bagger folks) is that the individual is a better person to determine where all their money goes than the government and in this case, a hamburger, fries & a coke is a better choice than public schools and public education.

I hope you enjoy your lunch.

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 21, 2012 @ 11:19 am
StanZ – you are still missing the point. First of all, I am not asking everyone else to pay for MY schools. In fact, I am tired of being taxed to death by Montgomery County, and just as soon as the housing market shows any sign of recovery, I plan to sell my house and move. There were a LOT of financial mistakes made in Montgomery County that all contributed to getting us to this point. I for one, was not in favor of building a brand new school. But since we live in a democracy (or at least we did before Obama got into office), the majority rules. The problem is how to pay for these new schools. And it does not need to be on the backs of the property owners again. Every time I drive by that monstrosity of a new courthouse in CBurg, I shake my head. Why was it so necessary to build a new courthouse, instead of investing in our schools? So now we have to figure out how to pay for these shiny new buildings. Your callous reponse above is indicative of why we are in this mess. If you were one of those senior citizens or people living on disabilities, perhaps you would have a different perspective.

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 12:22 pm
@MH – I agree with you that there have been poor decision made in the past, especially poor when viewed through hindsight. I believe we have the problem now because the tax rate was kept too low for too long instead of proper planning for eventual capital expenses as well as emergencies. Now, we are paying the price for that short sighted thinking.

As far as I can remember, that court house was a project begun many years ago prior to the current economic downturn and the money was allocated for it before the current woes, so yes, it looks silly in the context of the here and now but was probably ‘paid’ for years ago (like the schools should have been too).

Taxed to death? Come on, that’s over the top. One, travel to other parts of the country and you’ll see examples of high taxes but not here in the south. If you’re especially adventurous, go oversees and see what real taxes are about.

I still can’t understand the foundation of your argument about landowners paying for their schools. Kids who live in the county attend the schools. If you live here, than you help pay for them. Do you propose we tax people who WORK here but live elsewhere to pay for the schools? Of course not, that would be silly.

My callous response? It’s reality my friend. People make choices and live with the consequences of their actions. Buy a big house, you pay more to heat and cool it. Drive a big gas guzzling car, you pay more in your yearly fuel costs. It’s about choices and maybe the choice for the citizens is to pay a little more in local taxes to ensure adequate facilities for public education.

Your post has some references to the debates occurring on the national level. One thing I’v wondered, considering your Grover Nordquist stance on taxes, is how you stand on the status of the federal entitlement programs, specifically Medicare. I’d be curious if you’re still waving the flag for the seniors when debating that argument or you’re conveniently on the other side…..if I were a betting person, I know how I’d wager.

How was that value meal lunch?

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 21, 2012 @ 1:55 pm
Matt, you hit the nail on the head! These people keep mentioning the tea party, so you realize you are debating dems. Second, fixed incomes, means that “X” amount of dollars are comeing in each month, but with increases in food, taxes, gas, heat and other items that are required to live, its hard to find an extra twenty a month. It applies to MANY families. These are educated people (sarcasm) you are talking to! They even believe that if it’s a small percentage of folks struggling, it’s not a big deal.
BTW, Virginia Tech is still using a school that some baby boomers attended
in Blacksburg. Dang those old schools! (sarcasm again)

Comment by b.o.h.i.c.a. — March 21, 2012 @ 2:13 pm
Just to follow up on the Christiansburg school steel issue: I have not studied the two school plans, but understand that they are similar. In the case of the roof on the gymnasium, the failure was likely the result of several issues, including incomplete welds at the supports. If you read the forensic report you’ll see where the full-penetration weld of the truss seat appeared to have two partial thickness groove welds which did not have penetration to the root, leaving what looked like only about 50% of joint welded. Although I suspect that the settlement of the gym foundation played a part in the overall sequence of events, I don’t have any hard evidence (nor does anyone else) which would support this. In the Christiansburg gym, IF the same mistake had been made in fabrication, this is an item which can be repaired/strengthened fairly easily. Montgomery County hired Master Engineers (out of the Richmond/Forest area) to survey the remaining schools of this era. I was pleased with the selection, as I feel they have some very good engineers on staff.
This NOT, however the reason that Blacksburg was expensive to fix. I don’t know what the construction type at Christiansburg is, but in Blacksburg the main building is a concrete frame, not steel. Investigations into the floors revealed sagging of the concrete members which looked (from my cursory review of the elevation map data) like it had deflections exceeding the code allowables. Subsequent investigations revealed beams which did not match the sized shown on the original drawings, and destructive review showed inadequate reinforcing for the sizes which were actually in the building.
When the collapse first occurred, I was in favor of replacing the gym and putting the building back in service. When information came out that there were issues with the main building, I was _still_ in favor of repairs. I only started favoring the new high school after I found out that the building repairs would likely cost in excess of $15M based on just the small sample or beams to be fixed. The cost just to investigate how much was wrong with the building, the time it would take to do so, and the likelihood of additional work to be done once they started tearing into the building meant that the estimate was probably very low – and that turned out to be the case as we got more and more data. We were looking at more than 1/2 the cost of a new building, which was scheduled to be replaced in 10-20 years and was (I believe) technically near or above capacity, and was remote from some of the new athletic facilities. It started to look more like a waste of money than a net savings.
As to why schools are being built so big. Who knows? There are minimum “efficient” sizes – A basketball court is the same size no matter how many students are in the school, for example. Nobody wants an overcrowded school. We have portable units at several schools in the county (including Christiansburg and Blacksburg, along with Auburn) and nobody likes them. The population predictions I’ve seen only go out 10 years, so I can’t say what the population will look like in 2087. I do know that in Blacksburg, there was some discussion about the “proper” school size. My understanding of the BHS design was that it was originally designed for 1400 for a near term student body of ~1150, allowing growth to keep pace with the expected growth of Tech. In the end it was “value engineered” to a 1200 student school and that reduced footprint to save costs. In the most recent redistricting literature, though, the school – with no increase in SF or cost – is shown as 1400 student capacity. Many were wondering (some loudly) how the school magically grew in capacity without an enlargement in size. It’s a reasonable question to which I have not heard a complete answer.

Comment by Jordan Truesdell — March 21, 2012 @ 2:15 pm
Of course, Saari is correct. We’ve spent money on bricks and mortar to the point that Craig Meadows, County Administrator, shows in his proposed FY2013 budget that we’ll soon be spending $18.6 million per year on school debt service. Go to montva.com and look at the proposed budget power point summary prepared by Meadows.

So what are we getting for our money? Our SOL scores are in line with the average SOL scores in the state. So, how does our state do on NAEP (Nation’s Report Card and called the gold standard) scores? Well, VA isn’t hitting 50% proficiencies in math or reading. Massachusetts is tops in the US on the NAEP scores, but their scores aren’t in a bragging zone plus international tests show MA mediocre and well below countries such as Finland, Korea, and China.

Using the proposed budget from Meadows and including school debt service, our per pupil expense for 2012/13 will be $11,390. (If we include the $4 million in the budget spent on the School Cafeteria Fund, the expense goes up to $12,030.)

Too bad we’ve gotten ourselves saddled with $282 million in long-term debt, and we’re not tackling the problem of poor performance in our schools.

Comment by Barbara S. — March 21, 2012 @ 2:36 pm
Yeah, yeah, those poor senior citizens. Every year, they get trotted out as examples of just how bad things are because the taxes in Montgomery County are oh so high and they are burdened with them on their fixed incomes. Thing is, the county has tax-relief programs for those very situations to take care of those who might have trouble paying taxes and have to chose between food, home, and giving up a roof over their heads. So unless someone can come up with actual proof of people who have to buy saltines because of their tax bill, I call bogus. Same goes for the “taxed to death” claim and the “LOT of financial mistakes” claim. I do point out the waste of money on the court suits to block the intermodal terminal, but I would like to see a list of the “LOT” of mistakes. As to the courthouse, that was a project that was forced on the county by a judge/judges who pointed out several years ago the inadequacy of the present building and demanded improvements. The BOS dragged its feet in acting to do something while times were good (again, taxes could have been raised and the money collected much earlier) until the judge threatened legal action. Then it became a matter of no choice, the money had to be spent, after costs had escalated and the cost of borrowing had gone up. Pay me now or pay me later and it is now later.

As to the schools, this whole “Blacksburg didn’t need a new school” is getting absurd. Back when the schools were overcrowed in the early ’90s, parents went to the school board and supervisors to get something done. It eventually came out that the school board had been asking for plans from its superintendents but were unsuccessful, which is why they went through several people in the position until Harold Dodge was hired. It was finally worked out to build Kipps Elementary, but first Falling Branch had to be build in Christiansburg because “their crowding problems were worse.” The Blacksburg parents were dumbfounded because not one parent from Christiansburg had shown up at any of the meetings or hearings to complain or offer support for new buildings. The same thing happened with the middle school — Blacksburg parents focused on getting the 1950s-vintage converted high school improved or replaced and were finally successful in getting a new building. In that case, BMS was built first, followed by the construction of the new middle school in Christiansburg. In the meantime, the “every strand has to get something new in turn” plan saw a new elementary school built in Riner and the palatial Eastern Montgomery High School constructed in the valley. The people in Elliston did work hard to try to get their crowded school replaced but had to wait their turn, which finally came (with Shawsville thrown in for good measure). In all the years of clammoring for schools, it wasn’t until late in the game that the folks in Riner started to show up to ask for improvements to the high school and middle school — when they could have been there early in the game.

Then we have Blacksburg High School. It was inadequate from the day it was converted from an open classroom building to the monstrosty it became with makeshift walls, a heating and air conditioning system that never worked right, and structural problems that saw cracks all over the place. We now know why those cracks were there — shoddy construction, shortcuts, specifications that were ignored, and a foundation built upon the sand (so to speak). Anyone who was in the building or knew anything about the building wasn’t surprised when the gym collapsed and is not wrong in their resistance to returning to the dump. To suggest that it be “repaired” to be used for another 15 years is just a case of “let’s just screw over Blacksburg, they get all the good stuff anyway so this is a way to get back at them.” To fix the building is the equivalent of taking a car that was in a flood, then rolled several times in a wreck, cleaning it up and running it through the paint booth and trying to sell it off as “only slightly used.” Get over it, the building is gone, Blacksburg needs a high school, and it should be just as good as any other building in the county. As has been pointed out, on a per-pupil basis due to the scrimping that has gone on, Blacksburg is getting the short end of the stick in this deal (again).

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 21, 2012 @ 2:45 pm
StanZ – I will type this s-l-o-w-l-y so you can comprehend it. The proposed tax increase is on (ok, here it comes) p-r-o-p-e-r-t-y o-w-n-e-r-s. See, that means if you own property, your taxes increase. If you don’t own property your taxes do not increase. See how that works? But after debating you on this issue, if you are a product of the Mongomery County School system, then we do indeed noeed to spend more money on education (sarcasm). As for what they do in other countries, that is an idiotic and completely irrelevant comment. They shoot people in other countries for stealing chickens also. Your comments about the size of people’s homes etc is also stupid. I know many people on fixed incomes who live in very small houses and drive very old cars. The fact they are on a limited income has nothing to do with the size of their houses or the age of their cars. As for govt entitlement programs, Medicare is not perfect, but is essential for our senior citizens. I have no problem with my taxes funding Medicare for our senior citizens. As for the free giveaways that you Liberals seem to be so fond of, recipients need to be screened much more closely. There is way too much welfare and medicaid fraud out there. Welfare is not a permanent solution to poverty. It should not become a way of life, as it has for way too many people.

How’s that crow?

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 2:47 pm
Joe Hokie – poor old Blacksburg. The people making the financial decisions for you are certainly doing a fantastic job! Only the biggest and the best will do for you. Yeah, screw the senior citizens (sarcasm)!

How’s that First and Main Shopping Mall working out for ya’? Pretty expensive parking lot, isn’t it? LOL!

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 3:17 pm
Thanks for the response MH. Despite my repeated attempts to actual have a conversation with you, I’ve had it with your name calling and condescending posturing. In all your posts, you make some good points. Unfortunately, those good points get lost with all the name calling and personal attacks which undermines any credibility you have in making your point. And btw, normally the name calling indicates the person has lost any ability to rationally discuss anything. Live and learn my friend.

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 21, 2012 @ 3:43 pm
Instead of making fun there, Matt, how about coming up with the facts you were asked for? How many senior citizens are avoiding the tax relief programs offered by the county? List the multitude of financial mistakes the county has made. List specific areas where the budget can be cut or things can be done to fix the problems. I have some ideas myself, but I want to hear yours first. But I bet you can’t come up with any of these lists, you just spout off with your venom and broad generalities and hatred of Blacksburg and Virginia Tech. Boring.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 21, 2012 @ 3:46 pm
Joe Hokie – why would any sane person “avoid” a tax relief program offered to them? I know of none, nor do I know how you would come up with an accurate number, if there are any. You are the one who made light of the situation so many of our senior citizens face. That is a pretty shameful position to take. Hope you are never faced with choosing between food or medicine. And by thwe way, my daughter graduated from VT- I have contributed greatly to VT and the economy of Blacksburg.

StanZ – what name did I call you? Your problem is you don’t make any rational points – (going overseas to see what real taxes are?) Where did that come from? Just because I typed slowly for you, because you don’t seem to grasp the concept of taxing property owners versus non property owners. Liberals always try to point the blame on everyone else when they get their lunch eaten in a debate (aka Obama – it’s George Bush’s fault)

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 5:12 pm
Ok = StanZ and Hokie Joe must be related so I will dumb down my comments to make my position very clear:

I am not against spending money on education in Montgomery County

I AM against raising taxes on PROPERTY OWNERS ONLY to pay for these new schools. As should be by now be painfully apparent BETTER SCRUTINY on who we hire to build these schools needs to be applied, so we are not in this same situation 20 years from now, arguing about how the people (aka Montgomery County Supervisors) picked some crappy construction company to build these schools only to find out they couldn’t build a chicken coop, much less a multi million dollar high school. I do not want to see their hands out again looking for more tax increases.

Take care of our senior citizens. They deserve it. Who do you think paid for most of the infrastructure we presently have?

Stan/Joe: Get it now? If not, I’m afraid I will have to send you a bill in order to translate this into Dr Seuss……..

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 7:34 pm
And by the way StanZ and Joe Hokie – anybody who hides behind a fake name on line must not have much conviction in their opinions….What are you afraid of???

Comment by Matt Herring — March 21, 2012 @ 7:40 pm
In a more rational system, the funding for better schools in Montgomery County would come from a variety of sources, federal state, and local. But This country does not have a rational model for taxation and subsequent expenditure. The countries that are ahead of the US in educational attainment do (Finland, Korea, China). Meaning that the national government is heavily involved in funding education in those countries. It would be foolish to say that this is the sole cause for the US achievement lag, but the lack of a rational system of expenditure on education is a big part of it.

Comment by Kenneth Surin — March 21, 2012 @ 8:17 pm
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, Matt. Not surprisingly, you missed my point about senior citizens. I was not making light of their situation, I was making fun of the annual parade of the “oh no, my taxes are too high, taxes are bad, senior citizens are being taxed to death by Montgomery County” crowd who rattles off the same litany without any facts to back them up.

It only took a couple of clicks to land on the Commissioner of the Revenue’s page that describes “Tax Relief Programs” (http://www.montgomerycountyva.gov/content/1146/98/123/2479.aspx)

“These tax relief programs are available to anyone 65 or older, or who is totally and permanently disabled, and who owns and lives in the home (including mobile homes) for which relief is applied.

Tax relief ranges from 40 percent to 100 percent, depending on the total household income.”

The program is available to those who are over age 65 and those who are permanently and totally disabled, whose household income doesn’t exceed $50,000 and whose total financial net worth, excluding the value of the home and one acre of land, does not exceed $150,000. There is also a program for disabled veterans. There are other details, but the county does take care of those who could be adversely affected by the property tax rates, no matter what they might be. This kind of kills any argument about “senior citizens being taxed to death.” Drop that bullet point from the tea party talking points playbook on Thursday night.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 21, 2012 @ 10:39 pm
This country is largely in denial, because all the countries at the top of the league in education and health care do not undertake the role of being the world’s policeman (this country’s preferred role). The U.S. has to make a choice. Those who want reduced taxes and a worldwide American military presence (Tea Party?) have avoided the difficult choice. If you don’t want to pay more taxes, you have to give up being the world’s policeman, and perhaps spend the money on health and education. If you want to be the world’s policeman, you will have to spend much less on education and health. The logic of this situation is inescapable, and transcends the debate of money for Riner vs money for Blacksburg.
Neither the President nor his Republican opponents have presented us with this inescapable truth.

Comment by Kenneth Surin — March 22, 2012 @ 12:54 am
Wow Matt H, I’m amazed that you believe from our exchange that you’ve ‘won’ the debate. That kind of reinforces my opinion that it’s hopeless to have a real discussion. Also, if you can’t ‘see’ your name calling and such in your responses than you ARE out of touch with not only reality but how you are viewed, by what you say, by others.

Back to my original point, let me break it down another level for you since a monthly increased cost is still too hard to understand. The proposed tax increase will equate to $5.00 a week increase. Hmmh, so the average citizen needs to reallocate $5 in their budget so that our schools can be built. Hmmh, maybe choosing to buy a generic, store brand of a food product instead of the name brand product while grocery shopping would ‘find’ that extra $5.00. Person still gets to eat AND the schools get built. I know that’s radical and verging on socialism/communism/fascism but that’s what I’m talking about. People get overwhelmed and worked up about things in the broad, big picture but sometimes breaking it down into smaller increments illustrates it’s not that bad. Of course a $250 bill is daunting but a small $5 change in choices is much more manageable. Now, we can debate all day whether people should be required to make that choice or not but we will never agree.

Until yesterday, I continued to read ‘homeowner’ where you were specific about ‘property owner’. I understand now that you are probably a business owner, company owner, or otherwise saddled with the unfortunate position of owning property which creates a cash flow for you and the proposed tax will no doubt effect your profit. All I can say is regardless of whether you are a homeowner or property owner, you realize direct and indirect benefits from public schools and the county infrastructure and such should be required to pay for some of the cost.

In all your posts, I still haven’t heard one suggestion/idea in how you think other funding sources can be implemented to fund the public school costs. I’m not an expert on the Virginia Constitution or the Va Code but I do think there are some limitations, by statute, which limit the abilities of localities to raise revenues and as such, I question whether localities even have the options imagined by you.

Regarding taxes, overseas and around the country there are much higher rates of tax. That’s a fact. Also, most of the developed world are the ones with high taxes and high standards of living and education. I find it interesting that your immediate picture of the world is a bunch of developing, unstable, countries. I was going for an apple to apple comparison, you went for an apple to oranges comparison.

So, in sum, I hope your Declaration of Independence imagined, Constitution protected right to buy a super value meal is good today and keeping with the playground mentality that this discussion has devolved too, I offer “Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.”

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 22, 2012 @ 8:41 am
All this talk about only raising taxes on property owners shows a lack of understanding of how the Commonwealth of Virginia has restricted the ability of counties to raise funds. The state code gives counties the ability to tax personal property (cars and mobile homes and campers fall into this category) and real estate. That’s it. The county CANNOT enact a meals tax, lodging tax, etc. Towns and cities may enact personal property taxes, real estate taxes, meals taxes, lodging taxes, luxury goods taxes and pretty much anything else, but COUNTIES may not. The ONLY option the county has, after they have stripped budgets to the bone, is personal property and real estate taxes. The “car tax relief” hoax just had the state take money away from the counties, so all that is really left is real estate taxes.

Given this reality, MH, where can funds for the county come from besides from property owners (and renters, landlords pass on property tax costs to the renters)?

Comment by Patricia — March 22, 2012 @ 9:49 am
There are other ways to raise revenue besides property taxes. For example, the county can raise additional funds by increasing the sales tax and
use the corresponding funds for K-12 education. There are other ways to raise revenue besides property taxes. You cannot expect excellent schools if you don’t invest in education. The state of Virginia has not provided
enough funding for the schools and the districts do not want to raise property taxes or other taxes in order to get enough funding for the schools. Districts in Virginia would rather close the schools than try to fund them. To add insult to injury, the state will provide tax breaks for private schools. This is why Virginia education and US education in K-12
is substandard when compared to the rest of the world. And for those who complain that public schools have failed, want to shut the schools down,
cut teacher salary, get rid of the tenure system and give vouchers to students so that they can attend a private school. This is not going to cover the cost of private school, especially, when the family is poor. Basically, they want to get rid of the public school system where the majority of American kids get their K-12 education instead of trying to improve them. This will allow only K-12 education for those who can
afford it, leaving the poor uneducated and ignorant. Perhaps that is the point with all the attacks on the public schools.

Comment by SDBlacksburg — March 22, 2012 @ 10:18 am
To Mr. Mitchell’s comments:

1. Blacksburgians are snobs, not all but most.
2. It’s hard to see that if you live it.
3. Christiansburg sends more revnue to MontCo than “Blacksburg” ever dreamed.
4. I put “Blacksburg” because that town needs to realize..it is NOT the INGENUITY of townspeople or arts and culture that pay bills. It is the university that houses that town. Blacksburg should worship that campus to allow you to even remotely live the culture you promote. “at some point the people of Blacksburg will stop allowing the rest of the county to freeload on our tax base” or the residual impact of the student body that lives in our Town……..ResiduL yes, but it is only because of blind luck that the citizens of Blacksburg can tal the talk they do today…an 1800′s decision….oh qnd if Blacksburg wants to be the grand tax base for the rest of the county…NOT VT mind you, then why no WalMart?

5. Surprisingly ther are other children in this county beyond the town limits that deserve new schools in building less than 50 years old.

6. Blacksburg does not make that university run….this entire region does, and its time for somoeone to stand up and say, children of professors, doctors, and lawyers are not the only children in the New River Valley…the native children of this region deserve better than the carpetbagging misfits that are attempting to inculcate our culture with the liberal neoenviro rhectoric of bohemia thatdoes not equate to the hard work our ancestors did to pave the roads, clear the lands, and build the foundations for success we should seize today.

Frankly, in a nutshell, its time for Northern Virginia transplants to go back to Northern Virginia, we did fine for 200 years without you..we’ll survive and your little tabtrumswill nit be so out of place there.

Comment by Austin — March 22, 2012 @ 10:22 am
@ Patricia – thanks for that clarification and confirmation of my earlier post. So I guess the citizens of Montgomery County need to change the Virginia Code first in order to create other revenue options.

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 22, 2012 @ 11:01 am
Patricia – I found this online:

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§ 58.1-605. To what extent and under what conditions cities and counties may levy local sales taxes; collection thereof by Commonwealth and return of revenue to each city or county entitled thereto.

A. No county, city or town shall impose any local general sales or use tax or any local general retail sales or use tax except as authorized by this section.

B. The council of any city and the governing body of any county may levy a general retail sales tax at the rate of one percent to provide revenue for the general fund of such city or county. Such tax shall be added to the rate of the state sales tax imposed by §§ 58.1-603 and 58.1-604 and shall be subject to all the provisions of this chapter and the rules and regulations published with respect thereto. No discount under § 58.1-622 shall be allowed on a local sales tax.

C. The council of any city and the governing body of any county desiring to impose a local sales tax under this section may do so by the adoption of an ordinance stating its purpose and referring to this section, and providing that such ordinance shall be effective on the first day of a month at least 60 days after its adoption. A certified copy of such ordinance shall be forwarded to the Tax Commissioner so that it will be received within five days after its adoption.

D. Any local sales tax levied under this section shall be administered and collected by the Tax Commissioner in the same manner and subject to the same penalties as provided for the state sales tax.

Not sure how thi sfits into what you stated above, but it appears counties can impose other taxes if approved.

Comment by Matt Herring — March 22, 2012 @ 12:19 pm
Northern Virginian transplants stay put! Do not move! We need your input
to modernize this region. To be honest there are a lot of people in this
area who are not from this region (but are from other parts of the world).

Everyone wants good schools for their children regardless of their socio-
economic background. Local K-12 schools, near a University that wants to
be world-class, should be excellent. The surrounding community should
support this fact and recognize it is to the benefit of all in the
surrounding area. This means Montgomery County should do whatever it can
(including raising the revenue) to make sure the K-12 schools are top-
ranking schools in the state. Right now, Blacksburg has a middle-school
and high-school that ranks very low compared to other middle-school and
high-schools in the state. The community should make the appropriate
investments to improve the schools.

Comment by SDBlacksburg — March 22, 2012 @ 12:22 pm
Stanz – I don’t know what your facination with fast food and super value meals is, but for the record, I very seldom eat fast food.
But apparently you do, since that seems to be the only way you have of comparing costs, etc.

Comment by Matt Herring — March 22, 2012 @ 12:24 pm
Joe Hokie – You asked me above “How many senior citizens are avoiding the tax relief programs offered by the county?” Ok, your comment above says there are tax relief programs available, a fact everyone already knows. Now, answer your own question – ” How many senior citizens are avoiding the tax relief programs offered by the county?” Waiting……

Comment by Matt Herring — March 22, 2012 @ 12:47 pm
One quick point…for people who rent property, the tax increase will be passed along to them by the property owners…that’s how taxes work. If a person who owns a rental house sees their tax bill jump by $25 a month, the next time that lease comes up for renewal, it’s going to likely be at least $25 higher to cover the taxes. Taxes on business transactions (such as landlord-renter agreements) always result in the end consumer paying the tax, and the business/property owner collecting and remitting said tax. That’s how it works for retail and restaurant transactions, and that’s how it works with property rentals. So, saying this only impacts property owners is a bogus argument.

Comment by Other John — March 22, 2012 @ 2:40 pm
thanks for the quote, MH. I based my information on a Board of Supervisors meeting that I attended last year. After listening to person after person speak during public address about having a meals tax or a lodging tax instead of raising real estate taxes, 2 members of the board made a general announcement after public address closed. They essentially clarified that they could not impose any of those taxes, they could only impose real estate and personal property taxes per the Code of Virginia. I wonder if there is an addition or an amendment to what you found?

Comment by Patricia — March 22, 2012 @ 3:03 pm
Matt…we get it. You are angry, limited and mean spirited. If you are here to poison the conversation, as you seem to do on every blog, you have succeeded. Good job. You can stop now.

Barbara, do you have any additional info on how other countries fund school systems and how those system are organized? Or did you do a quick google, cut and paste job?

Austin, you may wish to have things as they were 200 yrs ago…time to move forward.

Comment by Mutt — March 22, 2012 @ 3:30 pm
Facts as I see them.

1) Two new schools are needed now and one needs to be remodeled to best serve the students.

2) Money is needed to build these schools. No matter how it is raised someone some where will complain. It seems to me meals and lodging taxes should be raised by all jurisdictions with in the county. With the amount of outsiders traveling through the area and to Virginia Tech it would be stupid not to. Why should property tax go up if it doesn’t have to? Virginia Tech is not being a good neighbor by not collecting meals & lodging tax. If VT wants Blacksburg to be an attractive community with good schools is should do its part and collect meals and lodging taxes.

3) The Real Estate Market is still down from pre Recession levels. This means property tax revenues are also down from pre recession levels. To have the same revenue you have to raise the base rate. I see increases in property tax rates for everyone not just those in Montgomery County as a real possibility.

4) The fact is neither Auburn nor Blacksburg need separate athletic facilities for both the middle and high schools. The proximity of the high school to the middle school at each location makes sharing facilities economically feasible and logistically possible. Later, when the economy is better, and some of the existing debt is gone, build better facilities.

5) If the residents of Blacksburg want the biggest baddest high school in the district let them finance the difference between what is needed and what is wanted. There is no need for county residents to have to serve them champagne when all that they can afford is beer.

6) It is the quality and dedication of the faculty and staff of any educational institution that makes it a good school not the size of the halls, gym, and cafeteria or class rooms. A good teacher will succeed in teaching students with sticks and dirt if that is all that is available.

Comment by Debbie K. — March 22, 2012 @ 7:24 pm
I think the school board needs to change the name of Blacksburg High School to Northern Montgomery High School. Not that it would make a whole lot of difference to some people, they still wouldn’t have a clue about how things work if it came up and kissed them full on the lips. Just because the school is named “Blacksburg” DOES NOT mean it is exclusively for the Town of Blacksburg. The Blacksburg strand covers the northern half of the county and includes Prices Fork, Merrimac, the Ellett Valley, Brush Mountain, and out Mt. Tabor Rd.

Same goes for Virginia Tech and the meals tax. The university could start collecting it tomorrow and it wouldn’t mean a thing for the county. The Town of Blacksburg would be ecstatic because that is a town levy, not anything the county can partake of.

Comment by Joe Hokie — March 22, 2012 @ 11:03 pm
Mutt – as I said before, if you have to hide behind a fake name, your must have little conviction in your position on this issue. Your online name says it all….

Comment by Matt Herring — March 23, 2012 @ 8:19 am
Mutt: I would suggest you do your own research on education quality and spending. However, I would recommend Eric Hanushek, a Paul and Jean Hanna Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. He is an expert on educational policy.

Comment by Barbara S. — March 23, 2012 @ 9:01 pm
@ Barbara S:

The Hoover Institution, though based at Stanford, is nothing but a neoliberal propaganda mill, named after the president whose policies caused the Great Depression, and which also has Donald Rumsfeld, who bears heavy responsibility for the fiasco in Iraq, as one of its current fellows. Enough said. Heaven help us if us people from Montgomery County get their bullet points from the Hoover Institution.

Comment by Kenneth Surin — March 24, 2012 @ 8:16 pm
@Surin,

ok, wait just one minute. You label the Hoover Institution as being “neoliberal” yet you state Don Rumsfeld is a current fellow. Can you not see the disconnect in that? Rumsfeld is the quintessential anti-liberal, as was Hoover. Further, your lack of historical knowledge is startling; Hoover did not “cause The Great Depression.”

Think before you write, sir.

Comment by E William — March 25, 2012 @ 7:40 pm
Everyone donate your trade to build, Viola! NO INCREASE IN TAXES!

Comment by Hoki 07 — March 27, 2012 @ 4:41 pm
on that note Hoki07, why couldn’t the contracts be offered to local trades? At least this way the money stays within the community. Instead, some company out of state will come in and build and thus none of the tax money, err our kids’ tax money will stay in the area.

Comment by Dwayne W — March 28, 2012 @ 12:59 pm
Good point Dwayne!

Comment by Matt Herring — March 28, 2012 @ 1:29 pm
And to carry Dwayne W’s comment to the logical conclusion; start buying your food at farmer’s markets, eat only at locally owned “Mom and Pop” restaurants and start buying everything you can from anyone and everyone besides corporate food chains and big boxes. That’s REALLY putting your money where your mouth is if LOCAL is what you’re after…

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 28, 2012 @ 2:30 pm
and to continue in that line, Dwayne, speaking of contracts, to all those who advocate stopping construction by denying the tax increase: what do you think will happen when Montgomery County defaults on its contracts to the contractors? They will sue, and win. So, you advocate wasting the $1 million+ already spent on construction AND opening the county to massive damages. Then, of course, the EPA will slap us with massive fines for leaving the raw dirt standing, which will run off into a protected stream…or should we spend even more money on seeding and laying straw over the many acres?

The whining about the tax is pathetic. Invest the future of our children and our county. Get over it…or move to a county with lower taxes. Oh, wait, we already have one of the lowest rates in VA! Nevermind.

Comment by E William — March 29, 2012 @ 6:00 am
Another good idea StanZ

Comment by Matt Herring — March 29, 2012 @ 8:35 am
Sorry MH, I was just commenting on the ‘keep it local’ statement. In a previous blog thread, I did provide a good alternative for raising funds which was raise the gasoline tax. It hasn’t been raised in 20+ years and it would capture money from citizens and non-citizens. That money would be earmarked specifically for transportation projects thereby allowing more general fund money to be used for schools instead of roads. What’s great is it’s a USER fee in a sense, which appeals to you from your earlier statements.
I mean I know, raising the gasoline tax is still RAISING a tax but there are more roads, maintenance costs are higher, and higher efficiency automobiles have reduced the number of gallons purchased thereby reducing the income stream but logically it makes sense.
But, I guess my statement about going local kinda gets back to the original discussion about that Declaration of Independence imagined, Constitutionally protected right to a super value meal (which you state is not your preference, and yet, you posted a comment online, last fall, about the C’burg Triathlon interfering with your ability to get to McDonalds).

Comment by StanZ1987 — March 29, 2012 @ 3:33 pm
So absolutely bizarre that a community in a region in which education is the economy
and the advantage in job growth that there is such opposition to a school! In a city of 44,000+
residents that is growing strongly you would accuse people of something as ‘selfish’ as wanting
a safe, quality school for their children to attend. Educating our youth is one of the most sound
assurances we have to benefit everyone in our county. Growing our local industry and business
sectors in a manner that arm our children to compete in the world is imperative — one of Montco’s
greatest weaknesses in attracting competitive business (and FYI – we are doing a great job already
at doing so) has been that for a few companies there are not enough ‘skilled and qualified’ workers
living here to fill potential jobs!!! That should alarm everyone from the local mechanic, to the MBA
and everyone in between. The smarter and more educated and skilled our citizens are the more we
will continue to grow and prosper. Please – let’s drop the ‘provincialism’ and narrow thinking. If you
fail to see the value of education and the facilities required to do so – then you fail to see the future.

Comment by Love It Here — May 2, 2012 @ 11:49 am

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