A few pit bull-related facts
A reader left this comment yesterday on Friday’s blog entry about wine bottles that will bear the pictures of some of the dogs rescued from Michael Vick’s dog fighting operation:
“Sorry, don’t trust that trash breed of dog. They just seem to go nuts too often, injuring children, old people and even their own owners. And why some people seem to love walking them in crowded places? A ticking time bomb.”
Okay, I am going to try to keep my gut reaction to that statement under control and just stick to the facts.
That “trash” breed is one of the most common dogs in America. There are millions of pit bulls and pit bull mixes in this country and around the world. One of them lives in my house and yes, I walk him in crowded places. He loves people, other dogs, and attention.
What you hear and read about are the ones who are abused by irresponsible people, like these dogs that were saved from Michael Vick’s evil enterprise. At least one of the less abused dogs rescued from Vick’s dog fighting operation is now working as a therapy dog.
Helen Keller had a pit bull. So did the Little Rascals. Rachel Ray’s dog Isaboo, whose face is all over the labels of her pet food products, is a pit bull. The dogs in the Buster Brown and RCA logos? Both pit bulls. Spuds MacKenzie, the “spokesdog” for Bud Light beer in the late ‘80s was a bull terrier, one of many types in the family of bully breeds.
The most decorated dog in U.S. military history was Stubby, an American Staffordshire terrier, also known as a pit bull.
According to the American Temperament Test Society, a non-profit group that promotes uniform temperament evaluation of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs, pit bulls rated around the same temperament level as German shepherd dogs and golden retrievers. They scored better than border collies, weimeramers, lhaso apsos and many other common breeds.
Before dog fighting seemed to seep out of the underground, pit bulls were referred to as “nanny dogs” because they are good with kids.
By the way, the dog most likely to bite adults and children is a dachshund.
October 27, 2008 - 11:35 AM
And just to lighten the mood here, check out this picture posted on the blog of one of my favorite authors, Jen Lancaster:
http://www.jennsylvania.com/
Of the dogs I’ve known, loved, or avoided as a kid, only one breed has ever bitten me and they were poodles. Do I hold a grudge against all poodles? No. That would be silly. Every dog is going to behave differently and their owners have more to do with the dog’s behavior than their breed, at least that is my opinion. I don’t have the facts to prove it, but it is my experience.
I am glad you decided to write about what was said, his comment was way out of line, an uneducated remark, i have only had my pit for a year but he is and always will be a part of my family, loving and loyal and he gets along fine with my 3 cats and 2 other dogs.
I love the picture! Thanks…that “American Pot Bull Terrier” is so beautiful!!! The breed is one of the very best.
I would get that same sort of reaction when we had our Chow. People automatically assume that the Pit, Chow or other so-called bully breed is going to eat small children or other animals. Our Chow ran away from kids and would only get aggressive if someone tried to harm us (which is a good thing). It’s all about how you raise a dog, not what kind of dog it is. As stated many a time before on this blog, it’s the owners that should be held responsible for the actions of their aggressive dog.
Cesar Milan’s calmest dog is “Daddy,” a pit bull that he uses to train other dogs!
Thank you for getting the facts out. Too often, people overgeneralize and condemn a whole breed for the ignorance and irresponsibility of the owner. Such a shame.
Also, most folks cannot identify pit bulls, and too often dogs who become aggressive are labeled as pits, but they aren’t. Folks can test their ability to identify a pit here: http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html
I was bitten a few years ago by a stray golden retreiver!! I dont beleive all the bad things that are said about the pitbulls.My friends have two pits and two kids. All get a long perfect.
Pit bulls were bred for one purpose: To race across a pit, attack another dog without any provocation whatsoever and keep on attacking until the other dog is dead. Not surprisingly, just as a dog who is bred for retrieving tends to be good at retrieving things, a dog who is bred for killing tends to be good at killing things. The only people who NEED a pit bull are people looking to commit a felony. Pit bulls are a horrible choice of breed for most people, because they are high energy, high drive dogs who tend to be dog aggressive, often dangerously so.
Not surprisingly, pit bulls fill the death rows of many shelters. They are the most commonly abused and neglected purebred in this country because the people attracted to pit bull ownership also tend to be lowlifes.
And, of course, they lead the list (by a LOT) of breeds who attack and kill people, usually children.
What is needed is strong breed specific legislation that regulates pit bull breeding to protect people, other dogs AND pit bulls.
Ignorance causes a lot of unnecessary worrying and division, and not just ignorance of dog breeds and behavior.
The worst part is when those who are ignorant also try to force others to do/not do something based on that ignorance. The result are comments such as that, dog breed prohibitions in certain places, etc.
Dachshunds rarely tear the faces off their victims. Pit Bulls are a threat to anyone within biting range. I know and love dogs, but these animals are simply dangerous.
There are millions of pit bulls in this country. If they were genetically aggressive, how do you explain all the pit bulls that happily co-exist with loving families and other dogs?
Maybe the root of the problem with this breed are some of the people who abuse them? After all, if they were born to be killing machines, that would have made Michael Vick and his Bad Newz crew’s job a lot easier; no training, beating, starving or torture necessary, the dogs would just kill on command. I guess the ones they executed for being poor fighters were the anomaly?
nonanelson,
Not all pit bulls are genetically aggressive. However, they all come from dogs specifically bred to attack and kill other dogs without provocation. Pit bull experts say “never trust a pit bull not to fight.” Unfortunately, there are lots of clueless people who want to deny the effect of genetics and who spread the untruth that “it’s all in how you raise them.” This often prompts well-meaning people to adopt a cute pit bull from their local shelter and to think that if they dont’ “teach” it to fight other dogs, all will be well.
Sadly, this isn’t the case. The pit bull may exhibit such high degree of dog aggression that it can’t be around other dogs ever, without wanting to kill them. This is a very, very negative trait for a companion dog and one that NO responsible owner would seek out or want. Many pit bulls die because of this totally negative trait (sometimes after killing other dogs and causing all kinds of grief).
It is absolutely true that not all pit bulls want to kill other dogs. Hey, there are labradors who hate retrieving and newfoundlands who don’t like to swim, too. But it would be foolhardy to seek out a retrieving breed hoping to get the one that doesn’t want to retrieve. Similarly, unless you WANT a dog aggressive dog (and NO responsible dog owner does), why get a pit bull?
[quote]because the people attracted to pit bull ownership also tend to be lowlifes. [/quote]
Huh?
Betsy and L.
How about looking at the lowlife Owners on the previous post.
Wanna see a Pit Bull Therapy dog as the new Milk-Bone “Spokes”Dog?
Check out the story
http://www.stillwatergazette.com/articles/2008/10/28/news/news410.txt
and then please go to this link to vote
Let`s put a “trashy” dog on the box and in every cupboard in America
http://milkbone.icmodus.com/
Big bully kisses to Betsy and L.
Have a great day folks
Oh yeah more lowlife owners
http://badrap-blog.blogspot.com/2008/09/minnesota-thugs.html
Check out the littlest lowlife
I`ll bet he`s gonna be trouble when he grows up
[quote]Dachshunds rarely tear the faces off their victims. Pit Bulls are a threat to anyone within biting range. I know and love dogs, but these animals are simply dangerous.[/quote]
Could you direct me to some factual info to support your beliefs L.?
Karen Delise is a recognized Expert by the Courts
Here`s mine
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/canineaggression.asp
[quote]Below is a list of 15 different victims of a dog attack along with the description of the fatal wounds as listed on the autopsy report. Each victim was attacked and killed by a single dog. Each victim was killed by a different breed of dog (for a total of 15 different breeds*). Only one victim was killed by a Pit bull (or any type of bully breed).
*
Victim 1: Multiple penetrating wounds to the abdomen
*
Victim 2: Collapsed lungs, multiple wounds to the chest, partial devourment
*
Victim 3: Massive head and neck injuries
*
Victim 4: Multiple bite wounds, dismemberment
*
Victim 5: Extensive scalp and neck injuries
*
Victim 6: Multiple lacerations of scalp and neck, depressed skull fracture
*
Victim 7: Exsanguination from multiple bite wounds
*
Victim 8: Skull fracture and severe bites to upper back and face
*
Victim 9: Multiple penetrating wounds to back and chest
*
Victim 10: Severe bite wounds to the head
*
Victim 11: Severe bites, massive bleeding, broken facial & neck bones
*
Victim 12: Massive head injuries
*
Victim 13: Severe, multiple penetrating injuries to head and neck
*
Victim 14: Massive bite injuries to lower extremities, dismemberment
*
Victim 15: Severe scalp, facial wounds, laceration of jugular
Fifteen different breeds inflicted the fatal wounds listed above. The breeds were:
*
Siberian husky
*
Coonhound
*
DACHSHUND
*
Chow chow
*
Pit bull
*
Sheepdog-type dog
*
Malamute
*
Labrador Retriever
*
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
*
St. Bernard
*
German Shepherd dog
*
Wolfdog
*
Golden Retriever
*
Mixed breed (no discernable breed visible)
*
Rottweiler
It is virtually impossible for anyone to match the breed of dog with the fatal injuries listed above – as such – claims that one breed of dog inflicts injuries unlike other breeds have no merit.
(Fatal wounds / breed matches can be obtained upon request).
* Breeds were chosen for this sample only if the breed has been involved in more than one human fatality (i.e., Airedale Terrier, Pomeranian, Jack Russell Terrier, et.al, were not used as only one human fatality has been attributed to each of these breeds in the United States).[/quote]
Betsy could you please substantiate your post?
[quote]And, of course, they lead the list (by a LOT) of breeds who attack and kill people, usually children. [/quote]
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites1.asp
[quote]“A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites.
*****There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill.”*****
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/biteprevention.htm/quote
Have a good day.
Let a Bully crawl into your lap and give you a kiss,it`ll soothe your anger and make you smile.
If you don`t know a Bully try this
http://www.dapbt.org/American_Pit_Bull_Terriers/flash_detected.html
or this
http://www.inalbum.com/ia20/display.php?username=blessthebullys&back=1&filename=Fight_the_good_fight___&pagenum=1&btn=1&bgcolor=282951
Try to love like a Bully (or at least substantiate you beliefs)
It will end Wars
[quote]What is needed is strong breed specific legislation that regulates pit bull breeding to protect people, other dogs AND pit bulls.[/quote]
Do you own a dog Betsy?
You better make sure you don`t own one on this ever increasing list of banned and/or restricted Breeds before you decide whether you want to ride on that BSL “Ban”wagon.
And remember Betsy they always include dogs that simply look like the named Breeds.
Some are rare,some not so rare.
Once you lose you`re footing,it`s pretty difficult to regain it on a slippery slope.
http://www.povn.com/rdows/banned%20breeds.html
[quote]1.AIREDALE TERRIER
2.AKBASH
3.AKITA
4.ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5,ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6.ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7.AMERICAN BULLDOG
8.AMERICAN HUSKY
9.AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10.AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11.AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12.ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13.ARIKARA DOG
14.AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15.AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16.BELGIAN MALINOIS
17.BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18.BELGIAN TURVUREN
19.BLUE HEELER
20.BOERBUL
21.BORZOI
22.BOSTON TERRIER
23.BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24.BOXER
25.BULLDOG
26.BULL TERRIER
27.BULL MASTIFF
28.CANE CORSO
29.CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30.CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31.CHINESE SHAR PEI
32.CHOW-CHOW
33.COLORADO DOG
34.DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35.DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36.DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37.ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38.ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39.ESKIMO DOG
40.ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41.FILA BRASILIERO
42.FOX TERRIER
43.FRENCH BULLDOG
44.GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45.GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46.GREENLAND HUSKY
47.GREAT DANE
48.GREAT PYRENEES
49.ITALIAN MASTIFF
50.KANGAL DOG
51.KEESHOND
52.KOMONDOR
53.KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54.KUVAZ
55.LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56.LEONBERGER
57.MASTIFF
58.NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59.NEWFOUNDLAND
60.OTTERHOUND
61.PRESA DE CANARIO
62.PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63.PUG
64.ROTTWEILER
65.SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66.SAINT BERNARD
67.SAMOYED
68.SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69.SIBERIAN HUSKY
70.SPANISH MASTIFF
71.STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72.TIMBER SHEPHERD
73.TOSA INU
74.TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75.WOLF SPITZ[/quote]
Think about it.
There`s more going on here than meets the eye!
One of several interesting Pit Pull facts, this from Wiki:
“Pit Bulls are not allowed to be imported into or brought through Ontario. Severe fines are in place for bringing new Pit Bulls into Ontario. Pit Bulls owned prior to August 29, 2005 are grandfathered in. All grandfathered Pit Bulls of over 36 weeks of age are required to be sterilized immediately. Grandfathered Pit Bulls must be muzzled and leashed on a leash of less than 1.8 metres while in public. Sale of non-grandfathered Pit Bulls to residents of Ontario is illegal.”
I have to wonder why that is.
Betsy
You didn’t go there….
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your quotes:
“Unfortunately, there are lots of clueless people who want to deny the effect of genetics and who spread the untruth that “it’s all in how you raise them.”
“This is a very, very negative trait for a companion dog and one that NO responsible owner would seek out or want.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I do not know if you are smart enough to read this blog on a regular basis, but saying NO RESPONSIBLE OWNER WOULD SEEK OUT OR WANT a pit bull as a companion dog has called out the author as being not responsible! Now I understand that part of the reason people read a blog is to have a forum for sharing all kinds of information both non-controversial and sometimes controversial. However, at this point you have gone after the integrity of one of the MOST responsible pet owners and pet advocates in this area. I could not take that without response.
It is ignorant people like you that spread the half-truth propaganda of breed specific legislation advocates. You are probably also on book blogs trying to advocate banning books you do not like from public libraries.
Aggression is not an inherent trait in dogs. It is a learned, and while the methods for teaching it vary, it is usually rooted in abuse and neglect. Any dog, and I do mean ANY dog, can be aggressive if that is his/her learned response to stressful situations, but they aren’t born that way.
In my opinion, breed specific legislation is used a placebo by politicians who want to look like they are “doing something” about public safety. Instead of stigmatizing dogs, perhaps these legislative resources could be better spent educating communities about responsible dog ownership and toughening laws that punish irresponsible people for abusing dogs and other animals and letting their dogs run loose to menace neighborhoods and injure people and other pets.
I just have to add that I have always given pit bulls the benefit of the doubt until my dog was attacked by one at a park recently. It was quite obvious the intention of that pit bull was to harm if not kill. When I took my dog to the vet to have his wounds stitched the vet said that they see dog bites every day and 90% of them come from pit bulls. Just something that may hit home locally. Local park, local vet, local incident. Not trying to slam the breed, it’s just a heads up!
I do not own a dog, but have never met a dog I didn’t like.
I have owned dogs in the past and believe that, like children, they are a great responsibility. I firmly believe (this is my opinion) that dogs mimick their owners. If you adopt a dog from a breeder or the pound, you adopt it’s past. Be prepared for anything from any type of dog.
And at the end of the day, they are animals. They cannot communicate with humans very well and any breed may misinterpret a kind gesture with an aggressive one. Tied to their instincts a dog, and any other animal, would revert to a flight or fight reaction in an aggressive situation. Plain and simple.
Trust the dogs you know and be respectful of the ones you don’t.
Wow I don’t even know where to begin! 1st just let me say that no matter what any of us put on this page it’s not likely we will change the minds of anyone who has already made their decision about pit bulls, but I will never stop trying to educate the people who have not.
So, anyway, I was raised with pit bulls and rots. We got our 1st pit when I was 5 and she lived until I was 18 with an uncountable amount of pits and other dogs in between. I mention her because she was the most amazing dog in the world! She actually saved my life more than once from snakes and what have you. She never once attacked a person. The only living things she did kill were wild animals which is here instinct not viciousness! She had her tail broken twice by small kids pulling on it and never once hurt one! And although I won’t go into detail on the several others we owned none of them attacked or “snapped” on anyone either!
I also now at age 25 have still only owned pitbulls or a mix of the breed. I have an 8 year old son that has also been around this breed since he was an infant. I have an adult male who wouldn’t hurt anyone. He is smart and well trained and goes out in public with other animals and people. He also has never hurt anyone. He has never been exposed to fighting or abuse and thinks he is a lap dog. He is very social and is a joy to have around. he even goes nuts if you take his collar off! He must think he is going to be given away or something because the second the collar comes off he gets anxious and sniff, nuddges, and licks it until it gets put back on. I love him! He will always be a part of the family.
I am a firm believer, due to experience and research, that this breed is very loyal and will do anything to please their masters. If they are raised and taught to fight and are praised for fighting they are going to do it plain and simple. If you ever look into these cases on TV or the news where people are attacked by pits there is always and underlying cause of the attack whether it be a history of fighting or abuse.
I do have to say I found an abandoned adult male pit and he did attack other dogs but come to find out he was taught to fight and was abused. He was very loyal and protective of me and my son. Sadly he was humanely euthanized by my choice. So as you can see I’m not really biased I have experienced certain cases but there is always an underlying cause if you take the time to look for it rather than automatically assume the dog is vicious.
There have been numerous studies done and the last one I read said that poodles, other small dogs and even dalmations were more likely to bite and be aggresive than pit bulls. The reason pit bulls have such a bad rap is because they have become associated with the felons, drug dealers, and other “bad guys” and when they bite they actually do damage. And speaking of doing damage there have also been studies that prove pit bulls cannot “lock” their jaws. They have very strong muscles and can hold on but there is no “locking” mechanizm in their body or trigger in there brain that causes their jaws to “lock.”
So that is my take on the whole pit bull situation. There is still alot to say about them but people don’t like to read long emails.
If anyone would like some references or more info you can email me @ rachelle8300@yahoo.com
[quote]I have to wonder why that is.[/quote]
I wonder why slavery was allowed?
I wonder why Blacks weren`t allow in White Establishments?
I wonder why 6 million Jews were exterminated?
I wonder why “witches” were burned at the stake?
I think the questions you should be asking are…
Why are “dangerous” dogs grandfathered?
These “dangerous” grandfathered dogs will be living in Ontario and elsewhere for ~12-15 years.
Why are “dangerous” dogs allowed to be shipped to other Provinces in Canada and other States in this Country?
If Ontario`s ban was fact based why aren`t Huskies and Husky type dogs banned?
They are responsible for 70% of the fatalities in Canada.
There is one,possibly 2 fatalities EVER in Canada due to an AmStaff and another possible ‘pit’.
Breed bans have nothing to do with Public Safety and Ontario Canada was told not to do it by EVERY credible Expert who testified at their Hearings.
Just a snippet from their Ontario Veterinary Medical Association.
[quote]An argument is sometimes made that, while all dogs bite, only a few breeds cause serious injury when they attack. Again, this hypothesis does not withstand scrutiny. A study by the Canadian hospitals injury reporting and prevention program (CHIRPP) examined the dog breeds involved in attacks that were serious enough that the victim sought medical attention at one of eight reporting hospitals. The study revealed that 50 different types of purebreds and 33 types of crossbreeds had been involved in the attacks, the most common breeds being German shepherds, cocker spaniels, Rottweilers and golden retrievers.[/quote]
Where did the ‘Pit’ bite victims go for treatment?
http://www.ontla.on.ca/committee-proceedings/transcripts/files_html/2005-01-24_M009.htm#P672_181318
You can read the rest at the link given if you have any interest in FACTS.
Breed Bans are NEVER fact based and neither are Court Decisions.
They do it because they can do it(Doesn`t violate our Constitution or Canad`s Charter and they cater to the uneducated and misinformed like yourself.
“…you can`t cure stupid”
http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2008/10/come-down-off-that-ledge-selma.html
‘Pit Bulls’ will be in this World long after you and I and everyone else are gone from this Earth.
Your ignorance on the issue is glaringly obvious.
M. Palm: I am sincerely sorry to hear your dog was hurt and I hope he or she will be okay. I know how awful it is when your pet is injured.
I hope the owner of the pit bull did the right thing and offered to pay your vet bills. I also hope he or she either learns to control the dog, keeps the dog away from the public, or takes whatever action is necessary to make sure that never happens again. That’s what a responsible dog owner should do.
Any dog that bites should never be unsupervised or out of their owners control around other dogs and people, ever. Period. People who own dogs, especially pit bulls given their reputation, HAVE to make sure they can behave socially with strangers and other dogs.
Ian,
My mistake. You’re right. If a pit bull is pictured on a box of Milk Bones, that is proof positive that they don’t, in fact. lead all other breeds of dog in terms of killing people (by a wide margin).
And the next time you go to an urban shelter and see row upon row of pit bulls on death row, waiting to die lonely terrified deaths, you can tell them “cheer up! A pit bull is pictured on a Milk Bone box!”
(Dont’ forget to say “but PETEY was a pit bull”)
After all, saying completely irrelevant things is a whole lot easier than working to pass meaningful breed specific legislation that will benefit both communities AND pit bulls.
Of course I can back up my assertion that pit bulls kill FAR more people than any other breed. Somebody mentioned that Karen Delise is an expert. She certainly has gathered statistics. (A lot of her conclusions are pretty wacky, though). Her book “Fatal Dog Attacks” documents that between 1965 and 2001, pit bull type dogs killed 92 people. Retriever type dogs? Uh, 9.
And the problem has gotten far worse since 2001. Last year, for example, the great majority of people killed were killed by bully breed dogs. And, sadly, as more people are breeding pit bulls and the problem gets more out of control MORE people are killed by dogs.
Anybody who doesn’t believe that the pit bull problem has reached a crisis should visit any urban shelter and see the pit bulls lined up in cages, all waiting to die. The vast majority of those dogs had both an irresponsible breeder and an irresponsible owner. Many of them were bred precisely for dangerousness–either to race across a pit and and kill another dog or to spar on an urban street corner and make their owner feel all tough and macho or to guard a crackhouse from DEA agents.
Ian,
Re your list of “banned or resstricted breeds,” (widely disseminated by pit bull people, who like you, apparently believe everything that they read) is baloney.
As far as I can tell, it was made up by the chair of Responsible Dog Owners of the Western States who is (surprise!) a breeder of AmStaffs (pit bulls).
But, prove your point. Tell us EXACTLY where in this country pugs and Keeshonden and french bulldogs and golden retrievers are banned or restricted.”
If you can’t (and you won’t be able to, because it isn’t true), then perhaps you shouldn’t be so gullible and should stop spreading falsehoods.
It is absolutely true that pit bulls are banned in an ever increasing number of places. This will continue unless pit bull people do something meaningful to address the crisis that faces pit bulls.
If pit bull people don’t want to see their breed banned everywhere, they need to lobby hard right now for strong breed specific legislation to get the lowlifes out of pit bull breeding. Currently the VAST majority of pit bulls are bred by people who are totally, 100% irresponsible.
The law should require that all pit bulls and pit bull mixes be microchipped and all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC or UKC-PR registered show dogs be spay/neutered.
This would immediately start to cut down on the horrific pit bull overpopulation problem, would provide an easy mechanism to address the dog fighting epidemic and would save some childrens’ lives. It is a win for communities, children AND pit bulls and responsible pit bull owners .
The only losers under such a law would be the irresponsible pit bull breeders who can no longer make money off the suffering of pit bulls and the occasional deaths of children.
For all you folks who believe that pit bulls only fight “to please their masters” and that pit bulls who haven’t been taught to fight aren’t dog aggressive, why don’t you go to some pit bull bulletin boards where responsible pit bull owners congregate. (“Pit Bull Talk” is one. “Pit Bull Forum” is another). Post that any of those pit bull owners whose dogs want to kill other dogs must have taught them to be dog aggressive.
Or, better yet, post that you support a law that advocates criminally prosecuting any pit bull owner whose dog is dog aggressive. After all, if pit bulls only want to fight if they have been taught to fight, owning a dog aggressive pit bull would pretty much be proof that the owner taught the dog to fight, right? And that is a felony…
I think you will hear a LOT of pit bull owners telling you (the truth) that dog aggression is genetic and innate in (most) pit bulls. This fact is specifically acknowledged in the UKC American Pit bull Terrier standard, by the way.
So, no. It’s not “all in how you raise them” and it is irresponsible to suggest that it is.
Phil,
Please try to read more carefully. I said that no responsible dog owner would want or seek out a dog with the trait of being dog aggressive.
Do you disagree with that?
Unfortunately, lots and lots of pit bulls are dog aggressive. A growing number are also people aggressive, because the vast majority of pit bull breeders are completely irresponsible. And while there are also a lot of irresponsible labrador breeders, NO labrador breeder (no matter how irresponsible) is breeding specifically for dangerousness to either people or other dogs. Sadly for pit bulls, LOTS of breeders are breeding for dangerousness.
Responsible dog owners try very hard NOT to own dogs who are either dog or people aggressive. Alas for pit bulls, the worst kind of dog owners are ATTRACTED to ownership of dogs who are aggressive toward other dogs or toward people.
This is the vicious cycle that is killing pit bulls (and, more and more often, the children who happen to be their victims).
“They cannot communicate with humans very well and any breed may misinterpret a kind gesture with an aggressive one.”
I would say that they can communicate very well, provided the human knows what to look for. From my experience the majority of dog “communication” is gesture/visual. Not just bearing teeth, but muscle tension, ear position, tail position, etc. Look at the people in the park next time you go, and see which ones recognize even basic signals of their own dog. In my area, surprisingly few can “read” their dog.
Of course, there can be “sudden” instances. I personally have yet to see an attack, or even an instances of grumpiness (“stop that!”) without ample visual warning.
Pit bulls are dangerous. See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNbSDMTRM5E
Hey Bill J! Airplanes are dangerous. See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUermaEQ-0s
I think that airplanes are inherently dangerous, and should be banned. After all, there is not one single airplane that won’t fall out of the sky without being properly handled. See how that works? You’re an idiot Bill, please go stick your head back in the sand.
Oh and Betsy? I feel like I NEED my two Pit Bulls, and I’m not currently “looking to commit a felony”, nor will I be in the forseeable future. In fact, I would bet I’m at least as responsible a member of society as you, although it is not likely we’ll meet at the Garden Club social. You spout facts, figures and general half truths like the typical left wing reactionary nut job you probably are, which leads me to believe that you know next to nothing about this issue. In fact, I’d guess that before trying to convince people that pit bulls were evil, you spent a lot of time worrying about gun control; actually, you probably still do. So rather than wasting my time trying to change your mind, I just have a question. What, exactly, do people like you do to pass the time when you’re not out trying to save everyone from themselves? And as soon as you answer me, could you please go back to doing it and leave folks alone?
Actually, one of the problems with pit bulls is that their dog communication skills are lacking.
Pit bulls are bred for “gameness” which is the trait of never, ever backing down in a fight and never, ever quitting a fight. Gameness is much prized by dog fighters and they will tell you that a pit bull who isn’t game (i.e. will back down to another dog or will quit fighting) is just a “cur.” Such dogs are usually killed by dog fighters.
Through all of evolutionary history, however, “normal” (i.e. dogs not bred for dog fighting) dogs have been “bred” (by the necessities of survival) TO back down. Wolves are pack animals and fights within the pack better not result in death or serious injuries to the pack members if the pack is to survive. Hence, most of dog fighting is highly ritualized, and much of it is show and bluster, not actual fights to the death or even fights involving serious injury. Non-pit bulls typically do everything that they can to AVOID a fight. Hence they bare their teeth (“look at what big teeth I have”), growl (“see how scarey I sound”) and raise their hackles (“look how big I am”) to try to intimidate the other dog (or person) precisely to AVOID a fight. Pit bulls typically have lost all these exquisite fight-avoidance skills, because dog fighters have bred only pit bulls who didn’t want to avoid fighting–i.e. the “game” ones.
Hence the saying (by responsible pit bull people) “Never trust a pit bull not to fight.” And, when the pit bull fights, it is far more likely to result in serious injury or death of the other dog than if a “normal” dog fights, because the normal dog is just fighting for show and status.
I am going to continue to approve comments on this topic, but I am asking everyone on both sides of this issue to remail civil to each other and refrain from personal attacks. People become emotional about their dogs, at least I know I do, but please make your points politely.
Clay Rathbun,
Please try to read more carefully. I said that nobody (who isn’t looking to commit a felony) needs or wants a dog who has the trait of dog aggression.
Sadly for pit bulls, most of them are dog aggressive. (Again, this fact is specifically acknowledged in the UKC American Pit bull terrier standard). Even responsible pit bull breeders (and the vast majority of pit bull breeders are not remotely responsible) tend to not see dog aggression as a serious problem in a dog. Indeed, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that many pit bull breeders (even “responsible” ones) and owners sort of LIKE the fact that their dogs could potentially kill other dogs. They get a charge out of owning a tough, potentially dangerous dog.
Maybe you don’t. I don’t know you. But responsible dog breeders breed for traits they want and breed away from traits they don’t want and there is absolutely no movement in the pit bull breeding community (even “responsible” pit bull breeders) to breed AWAY from the totally negative trait of dog aggression. And, of course, there are legions of totally irresponsible (and sometimes criminal) pit bull breeders who are breeding FOR high levels of dangerousness. Sometimes it is only dangerousness to dogs (which is bad enough). Sometimes it is dangerousness to people (which is worse).
The result of all this irresponsible breeding is a breed that often is most attractive to the very worst people to own a potentially dangerous dog. Hence the huge mess that pit bulls are in right now.
See Betsy, I actually DID read very carefully, and you said, VERBATIM, “The only people who NEED a pit bull are people looking to commit a felony.” So what, 90% of all bank robbers want to own a pit bull? Come on, like most of your argument, that is completely silly.
You are right in stating that the UKC standard says “most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression”. ‘Some level of dog agression’ does not mean that the majority of pit bulls would prefer to tear the head off of your golden retreiver. Without proper socialization, almost any breed of dog will exhibit some level of dog agression. That same breed standard upon which you seem to base your entire argument also states “The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable.” As a matter of fact, that same paragraph starts off with “The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children.”
Scores of responsible pit bull owners have proven that a pit bull is just as safe as any other dog, provided it is raised and trained properly. It is just as possible to raise a nasty, mean tempered lab if the conditions are bad enough.
Betsy,
I don’t “get a charge” out of owning a tough dog. What I did get a charge out of was rescuing her from the idiot who opened our vet’s door and shoved her in. You could not be more completely off-base in your comments. My love for my dogs has nothing to do with the breed – in fact I didn’t WANT a pit bull because of the nasty stigma which is continually placed on my innocent pet by misguided people like you. But after bringing her into my home (with 2 other dogs and 2 cats), I found that she was part of a very special breed and I *GASP* rescued another pit bull! But I must say, this little guy is quite the killing machine….I have the pieces of his favorite stuffies to prove it!
Pit bulls were developed for only one purpose: To kill other dogs. This is not a purpose that has any non-criminal application in modern society. Virtually anybody who owns a pit bulls could find another breed that would fill their dog needs just as well or better.
Of course, not all pit bull owners got their dogs because they wanted a dog that would kill other dogs. I know some wonderful pit bull owners, including a very nice couple who rescued an adorable pit bull puppy. They took her to puppy kindergarten, and continued obedience classes and intensive socialization as she matured. Unfortunately, the dog aggression so common in the breed began to be evident and gradually got to be so problematic that they were driving a hundred miles to take her to a dog behaviorist. (To no avail, I am sorry to say). Where they once dreamed of fostering other dogs, they sadly knew that it would be impossible with this dog in the house. It would be far too dangerous to have another dog in the house.
Although in many ways this dog has been very disappointing to them (they are VERY motivated dog owners), they stuck by her. She will be their dog for life and they have to live with the daily fear that if they are somehow imperfect (accidentally leave a gate unlatched, dont’ shut a door precisely tight) the hassles of owning a dog aggressive dog could become nightmares.
Clay Rathbun,
Do you really mean to imply that pit bulls don’t tend to be any more dangerous to other dogs than “almost any breed” who doesn’t have “the proper degree of socialization?” That implication is irresponsible and a huge disservice to pit bulls.
The truth is that all the “socialization” in the world won’t make many pit bulls safe with other dogs. Go to ANY responsible pit bull bulletin board (for example, Pit Bull Talk or Pit Bull Forum) and announce that you are intending to get a pit bull and take him on a daily basis to the local dog park for socialization and exercise. You will be immediately told that mature pit bulls (regardless of the level of socialization) do NOT belong at dog parks. They are an accident waiting to happen because at some point they are likely to remember what they were bred to do, which is kill other dogs.
Many pit bulls (even some of those who want to kill every other dog they see) are fine with people. Unfortunately, the same lowlifes who breed for dangerousness to other dogs, often also breed for dangerousness toward people. Hence a growing problem with pit bulls who are outright dangerous to people. And when you get an exceptionally strong, exceptionally tenacious dog who has been bred for bite strength who wants to kill a toddler, that toddler is likely to be in a lot of trouble.
Pit bull apologists often respond to the undeniable fact that pit bulls kill WAY more people than does any other type of dog by claiming that it isn’t the dogs, it is just that pit bull owners are so much more irresponsible than other dog owners.
It has to be said that there is some truth to that. People attracted to pit bull ownership are far more likely to be wanting the dog to use as a weapon than are people attracted to golden retriever ownership. There actually was a study that showed that pit bull owners are far more likely to have criminal records than were the owners of other breeds. That fact, coupled with a breed of dog with a high level of inbred aggression, is obviously not a good thing.
But so what? If you say that pit bull owners are so much more likely to be irresponsible than owners of other dogs, that just makes it MORE important to pass breed specific laws laws aimed at them. The law I advocate is that all pit bulls must be microchipped and all pit bulls except AKC or UKC-PR registered show dogs must be spayed/neutered. That law would be good for pit bulls, good for responsible pit bull owners and very, very good for communities and children
“There actually was a study that showed that pit bull owners are far more likely to have criminal records than were the owners of other breeds.”
wow….just WOW.
Betsy, then perhaps someone should tell my employer, The Department of Justice, about my pit bulls. Sounds like I’m a criminal waiting to happen.
But you know what….I really don’t care what you have to say about my dogs. You wanna know the reason that people don’t take their pit bulls to dog parks? Because people like you immediately make us feel unwelcome. And that shouldn’t be my problem…but you can only smile and placate the uneducated so long before you want to pull your own hair out! I pay to take my dog to a dog park (I’m not a fan of ANY public dog park) and that’s why my dog park has breed specific and size specific play times. But I guess you would just say that’s an accident waiting to happen as well…..
And for the record…ALL of my dogs are altered and micro-chipped. Because THAT’S what responsible pet owners, regardless of the breed, do to ensure the well being of their pet.
I recognize Betsy from other posts in other places. The BSL she is pushing for is a pointless waste of money and time, and it won’t make the community any safer. Mandatory S/N has never worked, much less BS MSN. But she continues to push for it. She also apparently gets a kick out of twisting the truth to suit her ends, which is a shame, because she’s intelligent, but certainly not rational.
Her biggest problem—the problem of everyone on here who is advocating BSL—is stereotyping. Not generalization, which acknowledges that individuals should be judged on their own merits, but stereotyping, which draws inappropriate and incorrect assumptions about an entire group of animals or people. Betsy and others assume that defining and identifying a pit bull is easy: just look for the dog-aggressive, human-aggressive, badly bred dog with a spiked collar, a chain for a leash, and a poor, drug-dealing, illegal immigrant owner. Right?
And here’s where BSL fails miserably on an ethical level. Because “pit bull” actually encompasses an extremely diverse group of dogs, so diverse that “mutt” might be a more appropriate definition. There are so many “pit bulls” out there of all different sizes, shapes, and temperaments that it is almost impossible to define what a “pit bull” is. It’s ridiculous to assert that “most” pit bulls want to kill other dogs, or that “most” pit bulls are being bred for human-aggression, etc. There’s no evidence for that; it’s pure fearmongering and stereotype-building, nothing more.
Sure, you can go on a “responsible” pit bull owner board and hear people say things like “pit bulls tend to be dog-aggressive,” but that’s just another generalization, another stereotype being perpetuated. Lots of different types and breeds of dogs actually tend to be dog-aggressive, including most of the terrier breeds. In fact, put two unneutered male dogs and one unspayed female dog together and you’ll probably have a dog fight on your hands. So what? Personally, if people want to say such things about pit bulls on a pit bull owner board, that’s fine with me; at least that way, owners will know to prepare and watch for dog-aggression, and maybe even do some socializing/training with their dog, instead of plunging in cluelessly.
Responsible dog owners of all breeds acknowledge that any individual dog may be dog-aggressive, human-aggressive, child-aggressive, fear-aggressive, whatever-aggressive. Responsible dog owners of all breeds prepare for all these possibilities. They raise, train, and socialize the dog. They monitor the dog for behavior issues, and they manage those issues if and when they occur. Every dog owner should be aware of their dog’s potential for aggression, their dog’s triggers and thresholds. Sometimes, novice dog owners have a Lassie-like image in their head, and it takes someone saying “Hey, you need to be proactive when it comes to dog-aggression, ok?” before they even consider that they aren’t socializing their Lassie enough.
Betsy and others also support BSL because they see pit bull owners as a dangerous minority group, a group of outsiders to be protected from. Again, this is a stereotype. I highly doubt that anyone who meets me would think I was a pit bull owner, unless I tell them. I think that probably holds true for most pit bull owners. That farcical study that Betsy cited to suggest that most pit bull owners are criminals is seriously flawed in multiple ways.
In fact, consider the sheer population of “pit bulls” and pit bull owners in this country. There are, literally, millions of them. If pit bulls were all truly aggressive and their owners all criminals, why isn’t our society dissolving into chaos and lawlessness? Even if “most” of these dogs and owners were such, why aren’t they out there doing misdeeds right now? Because it’s a stereotype. Most pit bull owners have steady jobs, homes, kids; most pit bulls sit at home watching out the window for their owners.
And most people probably wouldn’t recognize a pit bull if it jumped up and licked them on the face. A person living next to a quiet, well-cared-for pit bull may never even know the dog is a pit bull. For some reason, people only see a dog as a “pit bull” when it becomes aggressive or problematic. Just ask pit bull owners about their experiences with their dogs in public. This one’s universal: A stranger pets and loves all over the pit bull, then asks what kind of dog it is. When they hear it’s a pit bull, they are shocked, and either they move away, or they say (in a surprised voice) that they never knew pit bulls could be so nice.
As for any form of mandatory spay/neuter such as Betsy would like to see, I suggest reading Nathan Winograd’s book (Redemption). No-kill for pit bulls is a possibility, and Winograd has done it. It requires a change within the animal rescue/animal control culture, but it can be done if people are willing. And guess what? It doesn’t require any additional laws, like mandatory spay/neuter (breed-specific or otherwise) or breeder regulations.
Erin,
Uh, no…I don’t want to tell your employer that you are a criminal because you own a pit bull. You, however, might want to ask your employer to send you to a remedial logic course so you can better understand that if somebody says that a higher percentage of pit bull owners are criminals than are owners of other breeds, that doesn’t necessarily translate to saying that all pit bull owners are criminals. In fact, it doesn’t even imply that.
And, sadly for pit bulls, it is a FACT that more pit bull owners are criminals than are owners of other breeds. Nobody who is familiar with the crisis pit bulls are in and the causes of that crisis would have doubted that, but there has been a study in Ohio that confirmed it.
It is absolutely untrue that all responsible pet owners alter and microchip all their dogs. Some dogs SHOULD be bred. In fact, unless some dogs are bred, dogs would cease to exist. I’m not for that. Are you? We know, however, that the VAST majority of pit bulls being bred right now should never have been bred. (One concrete indication of how true that is is the pathetically small percentage of pit bull breeders who do ANY health screening of their breeding stock) Many, if not most, of pit bulls puppies being born will lead short, brutal, tragic lives.
The glut of irresponsible pit bull breeding in this country has tragic consequences for pit bulls and, occasionally, for children who die in their jaws. It even has bad consequences for responsible pit bull owners and breeders (not that there are many of the latter). The only people who benefit from irresponsible pit bull breeding are irresponsible pit bull breeders. Strangely, however, even people who consider themselves to be responsible pit bull owners want to protect the “rights” of irresponsible pit bull breeders to exploit pit bulls.
Pit bulls deserve a lot better than they get from pit bull owners.
JT,
Hey, I am very happy to “sterotype” pit bull breeders who breed dogs other than AKC registered or UKC-PR registered show dogs. They are irresponsible. And I am happy to pass laws that protect pit bulls and communities from the actions of these irresponsible breeders.
The question is why you aren’t willing to pass laws to protect pit bulls and communities from the actions of irresponsible pit bull breeders?
No, I don’t support warehousing thousands (and eventually, probably, millions) of pit bulls in “no-kill shelters” (where conditions are often horrible) just to make it possible for the glut of irresponsible pit bull breeders to continue to make money off cranking out more and more pit bulls. I advocate passing laws to prevent people from exploiting pit bulls and endangering communities.
Ok Betsy – you’ve made attack after attack on most of the pit owners on this board. Apparently I am in need of a remedial logic course and we’re all bad owners whose dogs deserve better – even though as I type this, my pit is snuggled up with her brother (a doberman mix) on the couch. So if you’re so gosh darn intelligent and so far above us all, what do you suggest that we do about the “pit bull problem?” Passing law after law to ban the breed will not work. In the hands of a problem owner, any dog is dangerous. And passing laws isn’t going to keep them out of the hands of dangerous citizens. I don’t know if you have any experience with truly “dangerous” people – the kind who can shake your hand while literally stabbing you in the back – but I do and no law is going to keep them from having a pit bull if they want one. By advocating BSL, you’re only taking them out of the homes of people like myself, who only wish to give the dogs the love and happiness that they deserve.
And what do we do with the millions of pit bulls already in the hands of irresponsible owners like myself? I suppose we should round up the pit bulls and euthanize them. Great solution! Because I’m sure the thugs will be more than happy to turn over their animals when the anilmal control officer comes knocking at the door.
*sigh* this is why I like dogs more than people.
“Do you really mean to imply that pit bulls don’t tend to be any more dangerous to other dogs than “almost any breed” who doesn’t have “the proper degree of socialization?” That implication is irresponsible and a huge disservice to pit bulls.”
Yes, I DID mean to imply that. It’s not irresponsible, nor is it a disservice. Neither of my pitts, nor those of my friends show any dog agression whatsoever. Co-incidentally, they were all raised in loving homes. That seems to be a pretty universal result when looked at broad spectrum.
“Go to ANY responsible pit bull bulletin board (for example, Pit Bull Talk or Pit Bull Forum) and announce that you are intending to get a pit bull and take him on a daily basis to the local dog park for socialization and exercise. You will be immediately told that mature pit bulls (regardless of the level of socialization) do NOT belong at dog parks. They are an accident waiting to happen because at some point they are likely to remember what they were bred to do, which is kill other dogs.”
Actually, the main reason us pit bull types avoid some dog parks is because of judgemental hysterical people like you. If a yellow lab attacks pit bull without provocation, it is the fault of the pit bull. Seen it happen. I actually DO take my pits to the private dog park in Salem, and they frolick and play happily with dozens of other dogs, some of which are pits.
I’m sorry to come right out and say it Betsy, but come across as a reactionary nut job. Your grasp of the facts seems to be partial at best, as you’re only grasping and manipulating those facts which suit your argument that pit bulls are dangerous.
The funny thing is in principle, I don’t disagree with your your position on microchipping and MSN. All responsible owners should have their animals chipped and spayed/neutered (I have no clue what you were talking about when responding to Erin stating the same thing, pretty sure she meant NON breeders when she said all, as do I)
However, in PRACTICE, a law of that nature would be a colossal waste of whatever paper it’s printed on. Why, you wonder? Because, by your own ascertations, CRIMINALS own pit bulls. Last I checked, criminals don’t give a rip how many laws they’re breaking. A breed specific MSN law would be nothing more than a hassle for responsible owners who have to prove compliance. It’s really a lot like gun control, which I suspect is also an isue you’d be able to write pages about…you know the main reason they let the Brady Bill expire? Mostly because it was nothing more than a hassle for responsible citizens and did noting to stop criminals.
At the end of the day, other than thinking you have a stupid idea, I don’t think anyone really cares about the “law you advocate” (where and to whom do you advocate by the way, just the Internet?). Really though, your blanket statements, stereotyping, and twisting of facts and data to suit your purpose do little to help you or your “cause”, you’re just ticking people off. Speaking of which, there are TWO “R”s in my last name. Heh, and *I* need to read more carefully.
” Many of them were bred precisely for dangerousness–either to race across a pit and and kill another dog or to spar on an urban street corner and make their owner feel all tough and macho or to guard a crackhouse from DEA agents.”
On the above comment, I had no idea that I had bought a crackhouse from a man that owned a pit bull. I thought he went to work everyday to his job, came home, fed his dog, played with the dog, and went to bed. He seemed very nice….and the dog (the Pit Bull) did also. I lived next door at that time and fed this very nice dog through the fence lots of treats and she played through the fence with my Cocker Spaniel and my husband’s Boxer. Wow…little did I know I was living next to a crackhouse, feeding a dog that was going to kill me and our dogs and what did I do…I turned around and bought the house that you claim was a crackhouse (surrounded by DEA agents). I sure am glad to know this but it’s too late now. The damage has been done. I’m not an expert like you Betsy…I’m just the everyday dog lover, cat lover, all animal lover…and yes, I was bitten by a dog one time…a very tiny toy dog. That dog apparently was in a bad mood though. I had a Rottie one time…did he bite me…or anyone else..NO. I would guess that you would have something bad to say about my current dog..she is a Cockalollie…….and she has been arrested for biting me when she was only 11 weeks old. I have yet to find any information on this breed as far as aggression though, racing across pits, killing other dogs but I can say she loves to dig holes and run around the yard in circles at high speeds. It is great to know this information about the former Crackhouse that I purchased 10 years ago and I suppose I am very lucky to have been spared my life after feeding the Pit Bull through the fence. If you come across any negative information about Cockalollies, please let me know. It’s bad enought that she already has a “Rap Sheet” at such a young age….I’m now wondering if she could have a little Pit Bull in her and I wasn’t told. She might…right now she’s trying to bite through her new squeaky toy that I bought her today…that is probably a sign of aggression….I think she is trying to kill the toy.
Hey Betsy,
Next time you decide to talk, don’t. Really I’m sure people can look at you and tell you come from poor breeding but when you speak you just solidify it. Your comment that the pit bull was bred specifically to fight is just dumb. I have an idea the next time you want to speak in a public forum,don’t. But if you must, there is this new information tool out called google, please use it. If you had you have stumbled across this.
American Pit Bull
These dogs were initially bred in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and arrived in the United States with immigrants from these countries. In the United States, these dogs were used as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions;[1] however, some were selectively bred for their fighting prowess,[5] and starting in the early 20th century, they began to replace the bull terrier as the “dog of choice” for dog fighting in the United States.
American Staffordshire Terrier
The original bulldog, also known today as the Old English Bulldog, was bred in England for the sport of bull-baiting.