No using your .223 for deer hunting next year
If you’ve been following this year’s Virginia General Assembly — and, with important proposals on topics such as background checks at gun shows youth life jacket laws, and hunting license fees out there, you should be — you probably know there was a bill to legalize the .223 and .22-250 calibers for deer hunting.
The key word there is “was.” The bill was tabled in a House committee today. (FYI, the Senate also killed the gun show background check effort.)
The debate on the .223/.22-250 issue is pretty simple: Is a .22 centerfire cartridge enough to consistently and humanely take deer?
I’ve heard passionate arguments from both sides.
Clearly, in the right hands and right situation, a .223 or .22-250 is plenty good. Me, I’m pretty conservative with shot selection and I’m a pretty good shot. (I credit my years of shooting at sparrows and starlings with my air rifle and not my stint on my ROTC rifle team with the good shot thing.) I’m pretty sure I would do as well with a .223 or .22-250 as I do with my .280 Rem on the whitetails around here.
On the other hand, there is no doubt less room for error with those tiny (55 – 65 gr.) bullets. And those little projectiles often don’t exit, which can lead to poor (if any) blood trail. So the deer may die, but you may not find it. (I saw a hunter hit a deer with a .243 WSSM this fall and we could not find an entry hole or exit hole until we field-dressed the deer. There was no exit hole becuase the fragments lodged in the off shoulder.)
Maybe because I don’t currently own one of these guns (would love a .22-250, though) I don’t have strong feelings either way on this. I’m wondering what others think.
Are you disappointed this fell through? Or did that committee make the right call?
February 4, 2009 - 3:28 PM
It’s an argument that could be debated for a long time. A .223 round is a very deadly round and I remember shooting my first deer with this caliber over 20 years ago and dropped the deer in its tracks because it has to do with good shot placement which comes with plenty of practice. You can wound a deer and not find it with a larger caliber but its not as probable. I can understand the law being passed but in the same breath I say it should be up to the hunter as to what caliber they choose to hunt game with.
I would like to see both of these calibers legal for deer hunting. As in all cases it is the precision of the shooter, not the caliber that determines if you bring down the game or not. To discriminate against the smaller calibers, which have alot more muzzle velocity, more than most of the larger calibers, is a false conclusion. The State is just giving up some income from hunting permits that they would get otherwsie.
i beleive the calibers 223 and the 22-250 are a little small for deer i’ve shot deer with a 270 busted the heart and lungs and the deer still run for several yards so i say keep them in the varmit catagory were they are hard to beat as for hunting license fee’s i think va needs to lower the prices a lot of my friends have stopped hunting because of the cost by lowering hunting license fee’s more people would buy the license thereforewould bring in more revenue from shells hunting equipment etc with hunting in decline in va i think the vdgf should look at other ways to increase revenue as in damage stamps take a kid hunting would be more feasible for many dad and mom’s if the license didn’t cost so much
As an owner of a .223 and having shot many 100s of them over the years I do not favor the caliber for deer.
Not that the caliber won’t do it’s job but bullet selection is such a major factor with me. The Nosler Partition is an excellent bullet for deer in .223 however not all rifles are made to shoot that bullet. Alot of .223 caliber rifles have a slow rifling twist for the light fast bullets. Plus most hunters would just buy a 50 grain soft point meant for fox or coyote not deer. This would lead to too many injured animals in my opion.
Just my .02
hey, I love my .223 but I am also a realist, the bigger the bullet( vel. & energy) the more humanely you will kill the animal. The worst feeling in the world is when you climb out of your stand expecting to find blood everywhere and all you got are a few drops every 10-20 yards and then you find the deer 100 yards away and you hit it square in the vitals but it ran like a scolded dog and the only thing you could use was a few drops of blood to track it’s general direction. I reload also and I’ve got every bullet combo and chronographed them all and the weight is just not there to produce the energy needed to make a clean kill. If you want to hunt with a semi-auto, go out and get a .308 , I did and can’t wait till next deer season.
Definitely a good move by the folks in Richmond. Some folks get too emotional with issues like this, just a little common sense will tell you that this is a bad idea.
Gary Vest, TScottW, and others It’s Unfortunate that you miss the point on the .223 round. By going after one bullet to hunt deer what’s to stop them from banning other rounds and “GUNS” from hunting.
Last year I posted the dialog of Democrats seeking to ban the .50 caliber period. Anti-gun politicians group all .50′s with the military’s .50 Caliber machine gun.
Some proponents of these weapons have never changed there stance, yet one thing is clear If they could pave the way to change just 1 weapon they can open doors to others.
Sometimes change is good, but sometimes once change starts it just don’t know to quit.
The legislation, cosponsored by Senator Edward Kennedy (D-Massachusetts), would re-classify guns under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA), which imposes far stricter standards on powerful and destructive weapons. For instance:
Guns classified under the National Firearms Act may only be purchased from a licensed dealer, and not second hand. This will prevent the sale of these guns at gun shows and in other venues that make it difficult for law enforcement to track the weapons.
Current law classifies .50 caliber guns as “long guns,” subject to the least stringent government regulation of any firearm, which makes no distinction between a .50 caliber gun, a .22 caliber target rifle or a .30-06 caliber hunter’s weapon.
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) Spoke at a PETA rally “When you have the conveniences of grocery store food chains you must ask yourself is hunting firearms necessary”.
How far do we open the door?
I am as pro gun as you can get. However having .22 and smaller caliber restriction on deer hunting in Virginia is not about gun control. It is about the proper tool for the job.
By your logic if it is anti-gun to not allow a .223rem then it must be anti-gun to not allow a .204Ruger, .19Badger, etc.. etc..
How about the rim fire shooters? Should it be anti-gun to not allow a .17hmr?
I too fought the .50 ban, the assault weapon ban, the restraunt ban, etc.. etc.. However a caliber restriction for deer hunting (which has been in Virginia since before I was born) is not anti gun. If they start to add calibers besides the ones smaller then .23 then I will join you.
Danny Davis (D-Ill.) Targets .50 Caliber for Nationwide Ban has no purpose in society except to cause injury and death to humans, dismissing the manufacturer’s claim that it is intended for hunting wild game.
Davis believes weapons like the 500 Magnum has a greater potential for becoming a lethal inner-city status symbol than an effective hunting tool, at least in his congressional district. He added that its high power combined with its concealability could make it the “weapon of choice” for gangs.
How do you conceal a 500 Magnum?????
Again, banning a caliber is bad. Having a rule on a caliber too small for the job is not. This is not new in Virginia. It has been a rule since God knows when. It is also against the rules to use shot larger then #2 for turkey hunting. Is that anti-gun?? Is it anti-gun that in Africa you need a certain caliber and energy to hunt the big 5? Or would you like to kill a hippo with a .223 rem??
.17 remington (not for deer hunting) .17 fireball (not for deer hunting) .204 ruger (not for deer hunting) .223 remington (not for deer hunting) etc.. etc..
TScottW — Using a .223 on a hippo in Africa why don’t you go ahead first let us know how that works out for you.
If you check on line with the DNR of Wisconsin Game Commission, you will find that it’s legal to hunt Deer with a .223 caliber rifle. ANY “center fire” Rifle or pistol can be used with the exception of .22 long rifle (rim fire).
Wisconsin is a very liberal hunting state and their regulations are unique and not heard of or followed in most other states. You do have restrictions as to the number of rounds you can carry. I believe it is limited to (6) rounds. But you have that covered also with the 5 shot magazine.
I guess expertise and cynicism goes hand in hand.
Wisconsin is not Virginia. Neither is Texas where a .22 is also legal but a .17 is not. It’s also legal to put a big pile of corn to attract the deer you are going to shoot. So comparing states hunting regulations is a bit apples to oranges.
You have yet to answer the question, if it is anti-gun to not allow a .22 as a deer weapon is it anti-gun to not allow a .17? How about a 9mm luger? or .380acp? Might as well throw in the .32acp?
Of course all those pistol rounds are legal deer fodder in Virginia. Though I would hope people would have enough common sense as to their use.
“Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that so-call respect of the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children until they are 18 and from criminals of any age.”
Let’s face it those fore mentioned calibers falls in line with “change” and conscientious effort.
Just today on the sportsman channel 9mm was the weapon of choice for hog hunting On the Guide to the Outdoors they showed the effectiveness of an air rifle using raptor pellets on hogs.
Under ideal conditions all are effective…..
Under the Anti-gun Commonsense idealism none would be available period.
If you’re gonna ban cartridges because some fool might use the wrong bullet and put it in the wrong place, you’re gonna have to ban all cartridges.
Contrary to what you may have heard, shooting a deer in the butt with a 100 grainer fired from a .30 magnum doesn’t exactly work all that hot either.
Is it reasonable to prevent experienced, responsible hunters from using capable tools, just because some people are incompetent? Why? Is it the general consensus among us, as hunters, that hunters are mostly stupid?
And in case anyone is wondering: Yes, I KNOW that 75gr Hornady TAP Precison in particular is more than enough to kill a deer, and there are several other loads out there that I suspect would just as well.
P.S. don’t know about rhino, but Capstick wrote about a story that PH Wally Parks told him, regarding a friend of his son dropping a cape buffalo in it’s tracks with a .22 Hornet (there was a stampede and he freaked). He said he wasn’t sure which was more surprised, the boy or the buff. I took that as an indication that he considered it not to be a good idea, in general.
Firearms under fire in capital license all guns or loose them
Attacks on Second Amendment rights are coming from at least two separate camps in the nation’s capital that gun owners might want to follow.
HR45
The first is a bill before the U.S. House of Representatives that would force gun owners to license their guns or lose them. It is called the Blair Holt’s Firearms Licensing and Record Sale Act of 2009.
Its summary reads this way: “To provide for the implementation of a system for licensing the purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms and for other purposes.”
The law would mandate licensing for any handgun or semi-automatic weapon “that can accept any detachable ammunition-feeding device.”
All sales would have to be made through a licensed dealer. This is not the case currently, where sales can be made at gun shows and between private individuals.
The bill also sets up a record-of-sale system through the Attorney General’s Office and makes it a criminal act for gun owners not to license weapons — and sets up penalties.
All the newly licensed gun owners would be required to be fingerprinted and show a current driver’s license and Social Security number. All gun owners would agree to submit to physical and mental evaluations at any time.
Gun owners would be required to report each change of ownership of guns — public or private. Failure to do so would result in an automatic suspension of your right to own guns.
Gun owners would also be required to submit a change of address within 60 days.
The full bill is online. Go to govtrack.us/congress. Search for HR45.
‘Assault weapons’
Attorney general Eric Holder told reporters Thursday that the Obama Administration intends to attempt to reinstate a semi-automatic gun ban in the U.S. His comment was in connection with questions about criminals purchasing guns in the U.S. and supplying them to drug dealers in Mexico.
These guns are frequently referred to as “assault weapons.” The term is being dredged again by opponents of Second Amendment rights to try to blur a very distinct line between a semi-automatic weapon and one that is fully automatic.
A semi-automatic gun fires one round each time the trigger is pulled. Dozens of hunting long guns and pistols for personal protection employ this system. Fully-automatic guns fire up to dozens of rounds a second with a single pull. An assault weapons ban implemented between 1994 and 2004 never reduced crime, according the data from the National Shooting Sports Federation.
House speaker Nancy Pelosi retreated from Holder’s comment. “On that score, I think we need to enforce the laws we have right now,” she said Banning some of these weapons would insure America’s peace.
–HR 45 attracted no co-sponsors and, fortunately, is headed for the same fate it met the last time Sen. Bobby Rush, D-Ill., introduced it. But, like with all gun-related legislation, it’s important to pay attention to what’s going on in DC and react accordingly. mt
It concerns me that this may lead to an eventual repeal of the 2nd Amendment just as was done to the 18th involving prohibition.
Whether we choose to believe it or not, gun control is very achievable within the U.S., but there are many tasks that must be accomplished beforehand. Our Congress is strategically accomplishing all of those tasks one by one.
My granddaddy used to tell me that the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.
I think that this idiom aptly applies in this case.
One comment in particular strikes me as odd, “under ideal conditions”. The issue I have, that as an ethical hunter you should only be taking ideal shots. I hunted for many years in NH with a 22 hornet for deer with great success by taking ideal shots which are the only shots any of us should be taking. In my opinion the consensus is way over kill on what is required. A “humane kill” is accomplished by shot placement, not speed and power.
A 300 magnum in the butt will kill them every time, you may not retrieve the animal and it may not be pretty but it will kill the animal and give ethical hunters a bad name in the process.
Obama to seek total gun ban in the very near future
In a speech in mexico Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that American bears most of the blame for illegal fire arms entering Mexico killing it’s citizens and President Obama is actively seek ways to rid it’s streets of semi- automatic weapons that’s being used to kill citizens in the United States as in Mexico.
This story is in CNN video news archive for Sunday 29, 2009
Pay attention to her comment about sales tax on ammunition.
Deer are bigger in texas and 223 is legal there. People talking about ethical shots and deer getting away and kicking the bucket later to never be found. If thats the only reason for no 223 (or 22-250) then lets get rid of bow hunting 2 years in a row I have seen deer running around with bad placed arrow wounds. An arrow just does not have enough energy to kill a deer humanely, I bet a 223 has more than 5 times it energy!!!
Mike Hamilton
–A .223 has tons more energy than an arrow. But energy is not a factor when killing a deer with an arrow. Arrows, when placed well, cause massive bleeding and quick death. The last two deer I’ve shot with my bow went less than 50 yards. The deer I shot with my .280 on Wednesday went 150 yards despite a double-lung hit. It’s when bow shots aren’t placed properly that you get into trouble. It’s just like shooting a deer with a gun except there tends to be less margin for error with bowhunting. mt
Mark
Last week on Gen.X hunting show, Ben shot a deer with a fixed bladed arrow, the arrow was slightly deflected by a twig struck the deer the ran off over a rise.
After an exhaustible hunt they couldn’t find the deer at all after three days of searching they gave up.
He said to a follow up to that show that they spotted the deer the following season chasing does they knew it was the same buck from trail camera photo’s and the scar from the arrow strike.
There conclusion the arrow didn’t penetrate deep enough, I would just like to say deer is tougher than we give them credit.
Yes, thats my point placement matters more, than what is used. If a deer is lung shot with a 223 he will not go very far. I too use a 280 rifle never had one run that far after a good hit, but sometimes that could happen. I know how an arrow kills also (I bow Hunt) but like you said placement is more critical a lot more critical than with any centerfire rifle. It seams most of the states I know of that will allow 22 centerfire have larger deer and usually a greater possibility of a longer shot. Virginia missed he boat on this hopefully it will come up again. Also it would be nice to hunt on sundays like almost every other state.
Mike H
Mike
Sunday hunting? The people around here would rather have higher taxes than allow Sunday hunting. Try risen the the price of a license to hunt bears is more stimulating than hunting on Sunday.
How hunting bears over bait.
I think a hunter should be able to use the weapon he feels most comfortable with. That being said, the .223 was designed to “wound” as many enemy as possible. It is a light-high velocity round intended to enter the body, hit a bone and richochet hopefully into the next guy behind him. The lack of recoil also makes it ideal for any soldier to use. AR-15′s are automatic because you have to lay down some fire to do the most damage.
When deer hunting you need a single, well placed shot that drops them immediately. Personally, I live in Michigan and hunt mostly in swamps. I’ve never had a shot beyond 50 yards. I use a .44 Ruger bolt-action and it puts them on their ass. Plus, it makes interceding brush a non-issue. To me, there are too many factors involved with the .223. Use a heavier bullet designed to kill, like a .308 or even a 30-30 which is an ideal rifle for dear both for recoil and velocity, accuracy etc.
.223 is just a .22 on steroids as far as I’m concerned.
I think a hunter should be able to use the weapon he feels most comfortable with. That being said, the .223 was designed to “wound” as many enemy as possible. It is a light-high velocity round intended to enter the body, hit a bone and richochet hopefully into the next guy behind him. The lack of recoil also makes it ideal for any soldier to use. AR-15′s are automatic because you have to lay down some fire to do the most damage.
When deer hunting you need a single, well placed shot that drops them immediately. Personally, I live in Michigan and hunt mostly in swamps. I’ve never had a shot beyond 50 yards. I use a .44 Ruger bolt-action and it puts them on their ass. Plus, it makes interceding brush a non-issue. To me, there are too many factors involved with the .223. Use a heavier bullet designed to kill, like a .308 or even a 30-30 which is an ideal rifle for dear both for recoil and velocity, accuracy etc.
.223 is just a .22 on steroids as far as I’m concerned.
The argument of shot placement goes for any game animal with any caliber of rifle. Knowing your equipment and your limits should always be practiced by all hunters.That being said, all weapons have their place each with their respectable applications. Personally, I am not an advocate of hunting deer, or any other big game animal, with anything smaller than a .24 caliber(30-06&7mm mag are my weapons of choice). For those who do not like the recoil that comes with magnum calibers, there are plenty of light recoil calibers out there like the .240 Wby Mag, .243 Win, .257 Roberts, .260 Rem and even .308 Win. Limiting the legal hunting caliber to nothing smaller than .23 cal, like in VA, is not gun control and it is ignorant to say so. Sure, with the right load, rifling and shot placement, a .22 cal centerfire will get the job done, but the unfortunate thing is that there are some hunters who will not take the time to obtain the right equipment.
Hunting regulations are put in place for a reason and it is our responsibility to abide by them in full. As hunters, we owe it to the animal to be as humane as possible. For me, that means leaving .22 cal centerfire and smaller to varmits, and big bore rifles to big game.
Good hunting.
The argument of shot placement goes for any game animal with any caliber of rifle. Knowing your equipment and your limits should always be practiced by all hunters.That being said, all weapons have their place each with their respectable applications. Personally, I am not an advocate of hunting deer, or any other big game animal, with anything smaller than a .24 caliber(30-06&7mm mag are my weapons of choice). For those who do not like the recoil that comes with magnum calibers, there are plenty of light recoil calibers out there like the .240 Wby Mag, .243 Win, .257 Roberts, .260 Rem and even .308 Win. Limiting the legal hunting caliber to nothing smaller than .23 cal, like in VA, is not gun control and it is ignorant to say so. Sure, with the right load, rifling and shot placement, a .22 cal centerfire will get the job done, but the unfortunate thing is that there are some hunters who will not take the time to obtain the right equipment.
Hunting regulations are put in place for a reason and it is our responsibility to abide by them in full. As hunters, we owe it to the animal to be as humane as possible. For me, that means leaving .22 cal centerfire and smaller to varmits, and big bore rifles to big game.
Good hunting.
i think they should pass the law of deer hunting with a .223 or 22-250 on the other hand i wouldnt want to bear hunt with one so i think it should be passed and up to the hunter if he dont want to use a small caliber gun ive seen sum deer took easyly with a 22-250 when i was younger and would love to beable to have that choice of gun to hunt with and would like it passed so my sons would be more willing to hunt with a small caliber gun and for women,alot of people beleive in the big large calibers to hunt and ive seen people hit the animal and blood everywhere and still not find the deer so i beleive its the shooter and how accurate the person is and hope this law gets passed for 2013!!