2012.02.13
I can focus on Sunday hunting negatives, too
The Sunday hunting issue is running the risk of turning into the proverbial dead horse here.
But, as you have probably figured out, I see this Sunday hunting debate as a big issue. That’s why I wrote about it — AGAIN — for my Sunday column in The Roanoke Times, which you can read HERE.
That I see the Sunday hunting debate as a big deal is kind of ironic, I guess, because I believe there is strong evidence that Sunday hunting itself isn’t a big issue. I think that’s pretty clear from we see (nothing) in the 39 states where Sunday hunting is not restricted, and, to a lesser degree, in the other half dozen where it is restricted somewhat, but not completely.
In short, I think a lot about this, and part of that thinking requires me to try to get into the minds of people on both sides of the issue.
You guys know I am a fan of debate. I think it’s important to let both sides offer their points, then let truth rise to the top. After my column in which I used simple math to torpedo the claim by anti-Sunday hunters that Sunday hunting would lead to a massive increase in gunshots in rural Virginia on Sundays, I got a couple emails in which I was accused of being “obviously” for Sunday hunting. So for my latest column I wanted to focus on some of the key arguments we’re hearing for keeping the ban in place.
I think I make a pretty good case, don’t you?
Excellent article Mark. I couldn’t help but smile ear to ear. I certainly hate to think that this opportunity will pass us by once again, but I feel the groundwork has been laid, and it will not go away until a compromise is reached and non-hunters accept some accomodations for the hunters. I appreciate your page here, and being able to express my opinions. It has been a nice experience.
Comment by Alleghany Ridge Runner — February 13, 2012 @ 10:20 am
Selfishly, I hope the Sunday hunting ban remains. It forces me to take a rest that’s well needed. That being said. I see the side of the argument by the hunter who only has weekends to hunt. Yet, there are bigger things at stake.
I personally believe the hunting season is too long as it has taken its toll on deer populations in western va. This is my opinion of course. If Sunday hunting is legalized. I hope the season is shortened accordingly. It’s getting to the point where we have too much of a good thing. Thats my take.
Comment by Jeff — February 13, 2012 @ 10:28 am
Thank you for printing the opposition’s viewpoint, it is important to look at things from both perspectives.
Great piece!
If there is anyone who wishes to join the thousands in the grass roots effort fighting to give Virginians the freedom and liberty to choose what they do with their Sunday they are welcom here:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/vasundayhunting4all/
Comment by Matthew O'Biren — February 13, 2012 @ 10:29 am
It’s no secret that many don’t support hunting, and it’s even less of a secret that many more really don’t like the idea of hunting on Sundays. It’s important to know two things: 1) It’s perfectly legal to hunt each hour of every Sunday and statewide 2) The House of Representatives just overwhelmingly passed a bill that will result in significant increases in lawful hunting on Sundays. HB95, which was strongly supported by the House, was carried by Delegate Tony Wilt, an avid bear hunter, who has great interest in bear hunting with hounds. This bill allows licensed bear hunters to train their hounds, but prohibits the use of firearms and the “taking” (killing of any bear), on wild bears in areas of the Commonwealth where our bear populations support these activities. On the surface this seems to make perfect sense. After all, when we remove the guns we’ve removed the chance that any bear, or person would be killed. But under the surface, when we take a closer look, does this really make much sense at all, especially when we consider that the House is likely to fail SB464. SB464 allows a private landowner, or guest that has written permission to hunt with firearms only on owned lands, but excludes the use of dogs for deer hunting. On the surface SB464 seems to make no sense to our House of Delegates. After all, when we include guns we increase the chance that our wildlife would be taken, and our people could get shot.
Obviously, when we look under the surface at HB95, we learn that there are no provisions for how many bear hounds can be trained, or where those hounds could travel during these training activities. That includes every acre throughout our National Forest’s, including every National Forest parking lots…..in fact these hounds, and their trainers have lawful access to every privately owned acre of land, in and around areas where these chasing activities take place. What probably should be of much greater concern, is hounds would also have access to every interstate, primary and secondary road. So when we take a look under the surface, we’d know that no guns, doesn’t truly mean that no bears could get killed, or all people are safe .
What could happen when our training activities cause a pack of hounds to follow a bear onto interstate 81, or into a National Forest parking lot filled with horses, and their riders? If the House fails SB464, and does so because they found that hunting with firearms within the boundaries of one’s own property was just too risky? Wouldn’t that place the financial responsibility of bear training accidents squarely on the shoulders of Virginia’s taxpayer?
If SB464 fails in the House, wouldn’t our lawmakers find that they would have the responsibility to examine dangers associated with any number of nonhunting recreational activities? Certainly, the General Assembly would need to have a good understanding of how other activity’s dangers would compare to the dangers that hunting on private property pose. If Virginia fails to identify these dangers, could it defend itself in legal actions that involved damages, but didn’t involve hunting? If it were discovered that a nonhunting recreational activity represented similar dangers as does hunting on private property, could Virginia’s taxpayer not be forced to pay for our lawmakers over site?
This is a perfect example of how our Sunday hunting policy could become costly. Horses represent lots of danger. They don’t invoke the same fear that hunting could, but they are dangerous just the same. We should know that hunting with firearms is prohibited on Sundays in our Wildlife Management Areas, and in our State and National Forests, but we know that in most of these areas equine activities are allowed on Sundays. So we have a parking lot full of hikers, nature watchers, and horse enthusiasts……and something as innocent as a person screaming because they nearly stepped on a snake, causes horses to become spooked, and charge into a crowd of hikers, resulting in injury. In this example the Commonwealth recognized hunting’s dangers, and found it appropriate to exclude that activity, but failed to recognize equine activity dangers. The State would likely find it difficult to defend it’s Sunday hunting policy if legal actions were brought by those that suffered injuries caused by horse. It could easily be established that Virginia removed one risk source (hunting with firearms), yet neglected to remove a similar risk source (equine activities).
So, if the State refuses to pass SB464 could that result in other recreational activities being restricted because of their dangers? It’s unlikely that would happen. But the State needs to closely consider how failing SB464 impacts their ability to defend itself in nonhunting incidents that result in property damage, personal injury, or even more importantly, fatality.
Hunting on Sundays with strict private land provision may prove to be much safer, than allowing bear hounds to train anywhere a bear may be forced by to travel by the hounds engaged in pursuit.
It’s also important to know that the House committee that will decide the disposition is well represented by the hunting hound and agricultural interests. Both of these strong lobby forces have been responsible for the failure of our past Sunday hunting bills, and both have been responsible for recent, and significant increases in Sunday hound training opportunity. While SB464 sees strong opposition from both the hound and agriculture lobbies, HB95 saw strong support from both lobbies. Our Sunday hunting legislation is not at all what it appears to be.
Tony Rutherford
Maybe you can help this get published as an Op/Ed?
Comment by Tony Rutherford — February 13, 2012 @ 10:39 am
Mark, good piece, and I don’t think you can do too much on the subject. We’ll get there, I’m sure, eventually.
Walt
Comment by Walt Hampton — February 13, 2012 @ 12:09 pm
I remember when the blue laws were lifted and we could go shopping on Sundays, I was a child. I’m sure there was quite the opposition then by many Christian groups but I imagine once the localities and state sat down and calculated the increased tax revenue it would get then it was not such a big deal after all. I am baffled by everyone in opposition of this, especially the landowners, it’s your property and you will still have the right to tell anyone who hunts your land that they cannot hunt on Sundays (I believe you still have the right to tell them they can/cannot hunt to begin with). When you catch someone that has not respected your wishes then you kindly tell them that they can no longer hunt on your property. All the bikers/hikers/horseback riders out there, you will still be able to enjoy you pursuits because no one would be hunting on federal/state land to begin with. I can only imagine the glee on the faces of PETA, HSUS and the like as they watch these silly things we quarrel over because some are afraid of change. Rest assured the world will not go to “Hell in a handbasket” if Sunday hunting is ever allowed. We will wake up on Monday morning and the sky will be blue and the sun will still shine (unless it’s raining of course;). Obviously you can sense my frustration out of my sarcasm!
Comment by Jim Basham — February 13, 2012 @ 12:51 pm
Alleghany Ridge Runner — Thanks for the comment. It’s good having you as a regular. You bring a lot to the discussion here!
Jeff — Thank you for being candid and honest! There are folks here who won’t agree with you, but they certainly respect you more than if you were trying to use certain, well-worn arguments instead of citing the real reason for your opposition. By that, I mean that a lot of Sunday hunting opponents make claims about religion, noise, etc. But their real reason is they simply oppose hunting. Period.
As for too much of a good thing, you have a really good point there. Biologists assure us that it won’t have a significant impact on the deer kill, and as I’ve written before I doubt they’d be willing to kill the golden goose that is deer hunting for the benefit of a short-term increase in hunter numbers And, actually, the DGIF would like to increase the deer kill in some areas. There are some areas where they simply can’t get hunters to kill enough deer. That said, there are areas where the deer herds are poor. But it’s not due to hunting pressure. It’s mostly due to habitat.
As for Sunday hunting increasing hunting pressure, it could happen to a mild degree. But DGIF deer biologist Matt Knox has said for years that extending deer seasons really doesn’t increase the number of days hunters get out. We have only so many days to hunt. Extended seasons, or Sunday hunting, is just going to spread out the pressure. I’m still going to hunt about 30 days a year. (Not full days!) Ralph Barton is still going to hunt 60 days (Just kidding, Ralph. Or am I? LOL!)
Remember, Sunday hunting works from a biological standpoint in 44 states. Does that mean it won’t lead to any tweaking of seasons and bag limits? No. Also keep in mind that within the next 10 to 15 years Virginia stands to experience a massive drop-off in hunter numbers as Baby Boomers age out of the sport, so instead of relying on 350,000 (or so) deer hunters to kill the 220,000 deer we need killed, it could be be 200,000-250,000 hunters. At the same time the DGIF will face a budget crisis that could lead to massive cuts in staffing, including among law enforcement.
Matthew — Thanks for checking in. I encourage readers to check out your Facebook page.
Tony — Interesting points, as always. Thanks for sharing.
Walt — I agree that it will happen eventually. The question is, will we still be alive?
Jim — I actually can see how the average non-hunter wouldn’t see the need to support Sunday hunting. Who cares, right? But I think the middle-of-the-road folks can be made to understand that it’s not a big deal, so it might as well be legal — just like everything else that is also legal Monday through Sunday. As for the hardcore anti-Sunday hunting people, the reality is that most simply want NO HUNTING. Period. So of course they will adamantly oppose any relaxation of the Sunday hunting ban.
As for hunters who oppose Sunday hunting, especially in the form of a compromise bill such as SB464, my only thinking is that they have not really taken an objective look at the likely long-term effects of keeping the ban in place.
Comment by Mark Taylor — February 13, 2012 @ 2:36 pm
As I’ve said once before Hunters want deer to grow and the anti-hunter want the forest for peace and quite. I say good let’s have it both ways….
Virginia Hunters and Fishermen let’s just boycott both hunting and fishing all together until the Sunday Ban is lifted. If African Americans can show the system through the Montgomery Bus Boycott (1955-1956)….
Change will happen.
Comment by The Amatuer — February 13, 2012 @ 5:04 pm
To those who still insist on using the religious arguement…for me personally, sitting in a tree stand alone with all of God’s creation and it’s beauty surrounding me is the place that I most feel a conection with him. It is a perfect place and time for reflection, prayer and reading scripture to pass the hours that I spend there. I can’t help but wonder how many other hunters do the same…what’s sacreligious about that, even if as a landowner we choose to do that on Sunday? I’ve never appreciated anyone telling me when, where and even if I should practice my faith in God.
Comment by Huntersdad — February 14, 2012 @ 9:46 am
@ Linda Hopkins on Sunday Hunting quoting Spock from Star Trek? How about Generalizing The episode The Trouble With Tribbles.
the Tribbles started multiplying like Crazy on the Enterprise and Capt. Kirk wanted them off his ship because they got into his Chicken Soup. He said he wanted them off his ship he didn’t care how but he wanted them off his ship.
Their solution, beam them aboard Klingon ship and we know what the Klingon did they wiped them out. Totally eradicated them from existence. Mind you left unchecked Tribbles multiply at an hourly rate.
Deer left unchecked multiply at a seasonal rate. Let’s do some deer math on average a Doe female deer will one fawn in many instances 2 some times three and rare occasions 4, but 3 is the extreme. At the end of the season a Doe will go back into estrus and in likely hood one of those fawns will be males.
So you have about 100 deer about 45 of those deer being females because males are more likely to be born. Plus the females. That will reenter a Estrus Cycle. That’s 95 deer reproducing with the Fawns from the previous season generally having 1 fawn rarity 2. So let’s say a 120 deer.
Now the deer density in a small area would have ballooned from 50 to a possible 250 deer the following season. Now many of these areas are posted with NO HUNTING SIGNS. The deer in these areas will be safe. Many of these areas are Urban areas.
In 4 years left unchecked does will continue to breed to a total of 900 deer. That’s a 1 mile radius. Not including those struck by vehicles that we see on the highways, and those that feed the ever blossoming Coyote population.
If we do the numbers Virginia on average have 1,050,000 animals (mean =
945,000. With an average of 250,000 hunters.
Even Spock had no ego to bruise. Nor do I about responsible ethical hunting. Your idealism is about control. You Speak of deaths.
What about people that die in Deer car collisions? Heck a elderly woman in Utah was attack by a Rutting Mule Deer and nearly killed and they have been four such attacks in that region that proved fatal.
So now we expect to put deer lives above that of people?
Honestly I’m all for an out boycott of the hunting season, just let you animal huger have the whole thing. Then use those tax dollars of those specific groups of individuals to bring those herd numbers under control.
Let’s without those hunting licenses and tax dollars will put how many Virginians out of work? How many will be in the Unemployment Lines?
Those TV shows that promote ethical hunting, will lose money, those companies that bring in material for the hunting community will lose,…
In the end guess whom will have Sunday Hunting if hunters got on the Ban Wagon of an all out Boycott? Sunday Hunting Ban will swiftly cross the country if the fear of this would happen.
Just like Star Trek’s “United Federation Of Planets” it’ll take unity to make it work.
Comment by The Amatuer — February 14, 2012 @ 11:52 am
Tony Rutherford,
Every time you have a chance you are critical of hound hunting. You were critical of hound hunting last year and are talking the same nonsense this year. In your articles to Bill Cochran and Mark Taylor you say hounds can be publicly hunted/trained every Sunday of the year which is completely false.
You also talk of hounds causing traffic accidents by chasing deer and bears onto highways. Don’t you think anyone would do anything in their powers to keep their expensive hunting dogs off a highway and in a safe environment rather than having it in danger. Surely you see many more deer and bear killed when they are in their breeding mode rather than when any training season or hunting season is in session. No one I know would take the slightest chance of turning a dog loose close to a busy highway.
Are you suggesting that all of the dogs that you see killed on a highway are hunting dogs? Surely you can’t stretch your imagination that far! If they aren’t hunting dogs, but are pet dogs owned by non hunters then are they not responsible for the dog causing problems? Don’t people try to keep from hitting and injuring these dogs or do they just set their sights on dogs they “know” are hunting? How ridiculous.
Hound hunting is “NOT” what will make or break this issue regardless of how you put your spin on it. Just come out and say you are against dog hunting from the start and “man up” to it. I will say I am glad to be a hound hunter and will do everything in my power to protect all forms of hunting, even those I don’t agree with on all occasions. Dog hunting is my favorite form of hunting and is where my passion lies, and I make no excuses for it.
You on the other hand talk like an anti dog hunting lawyer wanting to sue the state of Virginia for any of your imagined slights, one of which is, heaven forbid, a dog steps on your property. The group I hunt with has had very few land owner conflicts and I am just glad we don’t have to deal with people that have a mind set like you. You imply you not only don’t want dogs to stray on your property, you don’t even want them on National Forest land. I am not sure your agenda is not way more dangerous than you imply. Would you be in favor of eliminating dog hunting perhaps?
Richard Sprinkle
Comment by Richard Sprinkle — February 14, 2012 @ 12:59 pm
For those of those that are interested and are on facebook, here is a link to a group on facebook that is fighting for Sunday hunting and has lots of up to date info about the general assembly.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/vasundayhunting4all/
Copy and paste the site and ask to join the group.
check it out
Comment by Nathan — February 14, 2012 @ 1:36 pm
Great article Mark !
And fantastic comments from everyone…. I have nothing to add, ya’ll said it all very well !
Comment by Ralph Barton — February 14, 2012 @ 3:16 pm
Richard, I’m very pro-hound, very pro-Sunday hunting……and very anti-hound lobby. Training is every bit as important to VA’s hunting future as Sunday are.
I’ve hunted with a variety of dogs, and hounds nearly all of my life. I wrote and asked that HB95 be sopported, and the fox pen bill be opposed. I actively campaigned during the hound study for hound hunting liberties. But, I don’t always hunt with dogs, or hounds, and have always wanted Sunday hunting access.
Hounds hunting is legal every Sunday, and on public lands in VA. I support it…..as I do all hunting.
But when during the same legislative session our House says yes to hound training, and no to hunting with firearms on private property on Sundays we have an issue. Especially, when hound training grants hound, and handler access to someone’s property where firearms hunting has been restricted. The people of VA have grown tired of the hound lobby, opposing gun hunting on Sundays, and then gaining more Sunday chase access.
How would the hound hunter, myself included, feel if the State said no to hunting with hounds on Sundays, and yes to guns? It wouldn’t set well….and neither will does doing just the opposite…..yes to hounds and no to guns.
Why on earth would a hunting association fight hunting’s liberty? I can’t for the life of me understand this?
Comment by Tony Rutherford — February 15, 2012 @ 7:00 am
Richard I’m sorry my posts come across as anti-hound. It’s hard to mention Sunday hunting, and not mention Sunday chasing, and appear to be anti-hound. But here’s an argument that supports my beliefs, and doesn’t need to mention hounds.
If SB464 fails, the House will justify it’s failure on their belief that hunting with firearms on private property on Sundays is far too dangerous. By doing this, and not restricting hunting with firearms on public or private lands on Monday through Saturday…….the State is also saying that hunting is perfectly safe on both public and private lands Monday through Saturday. By only restricting hunting on Sunday the State couldn’t prove it lacked negligence in cases where hunting activities that took place on Monday through Saturday and caused damage, injury or fatality to any nonhunter. Our government can’t restrict an activity that’s too dangerous, and restrict it just on Sundays. It has a duty to protect at all times, and provide that protection through the laws that are adopted.
If the estate of the young Ferrum College woman, and the estate of the gentleman that was sadly shot and killed just recently filed suit. Virginia would unlikely be able to defend it’s own Sunday hunting policies, and have the ability to prove it wasn’t negligent. This would be based on the fact that Virginia knew that hunting was too dangerous, but only recognized, and restricted those dangers on Sunday, yet at the same time Virginia has exposed it’s people to those same dangers Monday through Saturday. Virginia has little choice…..either ban all hunting, or allow it on Sundays.
Hopefully, the House recognizes this oversite, and will pass SB464, or strike sections of 29.1-521 from our books.
Comment by Tony Rutherford — February 15, 2012 @ 8:31 am
Tony,hound hunting is NOT legal on Sunday. During training season yes you can be out on Sunday but that is about 5 Sundays when no hunting season is in.Pure pursuit only.
How would the hound hunter, myself included, feel if the State said no to hunting with hounds on Sundays, and yes to guns? It wouldn’t set well….and neither will does doing just the opposite…..yes to hounds and no to guns.—-Tony Rutherford
Tony, the above is exactly what SB 464 does!
To placate non-hunters who claim that Sunday hunting would keep them from enjoying the outdoors on Sundays during the hunting season, it keeps the hunting ban on place on public land.
An amendment to SB 464 puts in place a 250-yard buffer around houses of worship on Sundays.
It also does not allow hunting with hounds on Sunday.—– per Mark Taylor’s Sunday hunting article
As for the hound lobby it is no different than any other lobby, trapping, bow hunting, deer hunting, turkey hunting, you name it. You won’t get anything in Richmond if you don’t have an organization that will speak for your interests. NWTF, VDHA,VBHA VHDA, they all campaign for what there members want. Tony, if you are not anti dog I do not have any argument with you. I support all forms of hunting and only want the same from others. The issue of who can and can’t hunt, and what land they can or can’t hunt on is a hurdle that must be overcome on the Sunday hunting debate. Some dog people, right or wrong, felt being excluded was the start of an anti dog hunting campaign. I have had my say on this and will not let this turn into a dog debate when it is a Sunday hunting debate. I think Sunday hunting can work but there are issues from many groups that will have to be ironed out.
Comment by Richard Sprinkle — February 15, 2012 @ 9:33 am
Richard we have no argument…..I assure you. I actually wrote each House member and asked that they include hounds in SB464. I suggested a responsible hound per acre formula, and influences in more respectful retrieval. If I were a House Delegate, I would have had a hard time voting yes because of the hound exclusion. I would be telling a man that owned 5 acres yes to still hunting, and perhaps telling a man that owned 5,000 he couldn’t use hounds…..that would be wrong.
My issue with vahda is that they lie when they testify. Burch did it this week. The vahda has lost most of it’s member base because of their Sunday hunting approach. Don’t testify at the General assembly that you strongly oppose hunting on Sunday, then ride up Broad St., and meet with Mr. Duncan and staff, and lobby, and gain increases in Sunday chasing. Chasing, trapping, hunting…it all falls under defined hunting, causes unrest, and requires a hunting license.
Richard, we have no argument. I support every aspect of hunting. My favorite is spring, and fall turkey hunting. I like to sit and wait for deer, because I feel it allows me to utilize my hunting knowledge. But there are few hunting experiences like those found through hunting with hounds. I’d rather listen to a hot chase than…..well, I’ll leave that to the imagination. I promise, if we met, there’d be no argument, just lots of sharing of fine hunting experiences.
Comment by Tony Rutherford — February 16, 2012 @ 5:37 pm