Sunday hunting bill dies at hands of House subcommittee
As expected, a seven-person subcommittee in Virginia’s House of Delegates voted this morning to table SB 464, the bill that would have allowed Sunday hunting — with restrictions — in Virginia.
The vote was 4-3.
I just got back from a fun two hours at the Y with my kids. I just popped a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. It’s delicious. And bitter. Which seems appropriate. The bitter part, I mean. Anyway, now is not the time for me to get wordy.
To those who worked hard to try to get fair treatment for the feared, misunderstood minority that are hunters, I say “Prost!”
And that’s all from me tonight.
February 15, 2012 - 9:09 PM
I’m sorry to hear it Mark. Keep on fighting the good fight.
If 250,000 hunters boycotted meaning threaten and followed through not to buy hunting licenses. Then hunters would have Sunday hunting.
Unity is the answer.
We made it further up the hill this year than ever before. This change will take time, so we just need to keep moving forward and continue to change minds in Richmond.
In recent years of Virginia Licenses increases across the board and still no Sunday hunting this crap makes my blood boil. These sap sucking politicians get away with robbery and leave tax payers and land owners in the stick up position.
Yet again Hunters get stuck with a Law that in it’s hey-day was payable with 50 lbs of freaking tobacco!
My 2011 hunting license breaks down like this: $79.00
$16.00 County City Resident Hunting
$23.00 Resident, Bear, Deer, & Turkey
$18.00 Archery
$18.00 Muzzleloader
$4.00 National Forest Permit
Note if I had opted to use my rifle or crossbow that would have been an additional $32.00 If you fish on National Forest Land you can carry over your $4.00 from hunting.
Many of you don’t understand my frustration with these political hacks playing games. Maybe someday you will. But for the 2012 season I’m looking into another state that offers Sunday Hunting or just hunting in another state because these fools in this state don’t get it.
Oh did I forget those damn bird watchers, hikers, horseback riders, bikers and your everyday strollers don’t have to pay $4.00 for a National Forest permit. Those freeloaders are exempted.
So why I’m the only one pissed! I guess it’s no big deal that Sunday Hunting is taken hostage once again.
The prayers of the people of the state of Virginia have been answer.
It’s disappointing that four men can decide the fate of the entire state.
Even more disappointing that those four men all claim to be avid hunters.
To make this even more painful, the hound lobby testified against Sunday hunting, even though deer hounds were excluded from Sunday hunting in this bill.
As someone recently said, Sunday hunting won’t be the downfall of deer hounds (as the houndsmen claim), deer hounds will be the downfall of deer hounds. And those guys don’t have a clue.
I am with “Amateur”, I don’t get it. I keep hearing, “the majority of hunters don’t want Sunday hunting”. Who are these people talking to? Certainly not anyone I know. I live in the Hampton Roads area and have to drive 3 hours to the mountains to hunt, pile on the prices of of paying for everyone else to use the public lands, I am referring to the license fees and it makes a lot of sense for me to just give up on Virginia and go ahead to another state where I can take a week off and hunt the entire week. As much as it hurts me personally because I am a native Virginian who has hunted and fished in this state for 40+ years and paid my fees all of those years.
Additional argument; What ever happened to “separation of church and state”? How can we keep killing this on the basis of any religious beliefs on that basis alone? I am done holding out hope for all of the detached legislators we have…
We should do what “The Amatuer” said, Not buy hunting licenses. or do
buy but drop something, and the Comment by Sammy Bass to me is very wrong, since we most believe on something, no matter what religion
but you do NOT impose your belief to others, so what
ever you saying have nothing to do with Hunting.
Amateur you are certainly not the only one fuming about this, and like Jim,I can’t help but wonder who the hell these people are talking to when they claim the majority of hunters don’t want the repeal. I was hopeful that with asking only for the repeal on private land this would be the year that this outdated blue law would be done with, but there was no compromise at all from the opposition on Sunday hunting. The part that burns me the worst is the whole property owners rights thing…the legislature had a chance to return a bit of freedom and liberty to the tax paying public, but again decided to keep their stranglehold on this portion of it. It is truly a sign of the times we live in…
Mr.Bass and others might consider setting their prayer goals a little higher than denying rights to the tax paying law abiding land owners of this state.
The answer is to keep fighting. Nothing worth while comes easy. Keep writing those House members and tell them how disappointed you are in their decision. Support organizations such as the NRA that have taken a strong stance on this subject and have the lobbying pull to get things done in our system. Continue to show hunting in a positive light and seek to introduce people to hunting even though doing so sometimes means you might shoot less deer. And as the Amateur said, urge hunters to unite for a common goal. I have the upmost confidence that this baseless law is on its way out.
The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a political and social protest campaign that started in 1955 in Montgomery, Alabama, United States, intended to oppose the city’s policy of racial segregation on its public transit system.
Many important figures in the civil rights movement were involved in the boycott, including Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., Ralph Abernathy, and others, as listed below. The boycott caused crippling financial deficit for the Montgomery public transit system, because the city’s black population who were the principal boycotters were also the bulk of the system’s paying customers.
The campaign lasted from December 1, 1955, when Rosa Parks, an African American woman, was arrested for refusing to surrender her seat to a white person, to December 20, 1956, when a federal ruling, Browder v. Gayle, took effect, and led to a United States Supreme Court decision that declared the Alabama and Montgomery laws requiring segregated buses to be unconstitutional.
Follow history and hunters and Private Land Owners will have their way.
Fact: The majority of hunters in Virginia do want Sunday hunting. The most recent survey of licensed hunters in the state proved it. Two-thirds support Sunday hunting, and that is among all hunters. Among hunters under 30 (in other words, those who work full time and have kids) Sunday hunting support is at 80 percent.
There are people who will say otherwise. For example, lobbyist Kirby Burch of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance had this quote in today’s story (http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/304934) carried by us (and, I assume, the Virginian-Pilot, since it was written by Pilot reporter Lee Tolliver): “A majority of hunters in Virginia simply don’t want Sunday hunting.”
That’s a blatant lie and it’s frustrating to me that the reporter even used the quote. Actually, I support using the quote, just wish it would have been followed with a paragraph stating the results of those scientific surveys. Burch still has pull with some influential legislators, but his influence will continue to erode as the education process about the realities of Sunday hunting continue.
I think the important thing is for Sunday hunting advocates to continue to take the high road of truth and eventually this will work out the way it should.
i would pass on a license except for two things,first i love hunting too much and second im affraid the government would not care and stop all funding .
Just another reason why funding (License sales) for the DGIF will suffer. I have not bought a hunting license for the last two years because I can not afford to spend $XXXX per day to hunt. With my work schedule I have approximately 3 days (Saturdays) to hunt in this region. I am sure I am not to only person that is affected in this way.
The super sad part is that the DGIF not only pays their employees with the funds but offers the Hunter Ed programs, stocks trout, and many more programs that will suffer because some one would rather have 15-20 dogs running around their property than one gun shot near a church (huge cop out by the way). The best part about silly traditions is making new ones.
Mark thank you for your coverage of this tragedy. Maybe we can see a little more progress next time this is brought up. The fact that compromises were brought to the table and ignored really shows me where some peoples’ allegiances lay.
Well, we lost again this year. But it had nothing whatsoever to do with Sammy Bass’s prayers. God doesn’t care about Sunday hunting. If He did, He would have done something about the other 43 states. We lost because of 4 politicians and their erroneous beliefs…Or possibly because they are in a big insurance company’s pocket.
I agree with what others have said…keep fighting and, as Mark said, “take the high road of truth”.
What happened to hunter unity – sure am glad I bought into that BS two years ago when another hunting group was looking at additional restrictions.
A Sunday hunting bill will pass in the near future – the only thing that has changed in the near term will be myself & friends ever speaking out when the next bill aimed at restricting dog hunting comes out…
This is an excerpt from the article that Mark posted above:
“I did expect this,” said Kirby Burch of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, a group representing hunt clubs opposed to Sunday hunting. “A majority of hunters in Virginia simply don’t want Sunday hunting. But it will be back next year for sure.”
As Mark said, the second part of Kirby’s statement is not true. But how about the part describing the VAHDA?:
“A group representing hunt clubs opposed to Sunday Hunting”
I would like to know how many hunt clubs are actually opposed to Sunday Hunting. Almost all hunt clubs in Eastern VA that run dogs donate money or have donated money in the past to VAHDA. This does NOT mean that the club and its members are AGAINST Sunday Hunting.
I am a member of one such hunt club and have buddies who are members of other clubs. All of these people are for Sunday Hunting, yet the clubs donate money to the VAHDA because, well, it makes sense when hound hunting is the basis for their club.
What I dislike here is that all hound hunters have been automatically placed under the category of being against Sunday Hunting because they are associated in some way with the VAHDA. If this is the majority that Kirby Burch speaks of then he is, once again, very wrong.
I was also able to read a thread about the killing of the bill on a Hound Hunting forum. It is extremely interesting to see the split of hound hunters for and against it. Really shows those who stand beside the VAHDA and those who are caught in the situation I mentioned above.
Why not introduce legislation that eliminates the National Forest permit or require EVERYONE that uses the NF tog et the permit. Maybe that should be an better focus instead of sunday hunting for the future.
I want to be clear about something, not so much for those who have been reading here for a while, but for anyone who might be new to this blog. I am not opposed to hound hunting. I am actually supportive of hound hunting, for deer, bear, raccoons, whatever — provided that hunting is practiced legally and ethically. Hound hunting has a rich tradition in Virginia. It’s fun. And, importantly, if you start splitting hairs about one type of hunting with dogs being more (or less) ethical than another, there is nothing positive to be gained.
There is little doubt that fear of backlash is the primary reason some hound hunters/clubs oppose Sunday hunting, despite what the VHDA position paper says. But they must use other arguments, which we know don’t hold water, because if they publicly said, “We and our hounds are just going to make more people mad if we’re out there on Sundays, too,” that would amount to an admittance that hound hunting, under current laws and regulations, is problematic.
I would also add that one of my points on the Sunday hunting ban, from the beginning, has been how it holds a certain minority group (hunters) to a different standard than what the general public is held to. So, to be honest, I have a hard time justifying an amendment that would have banned hound hunting on Sundays. If it can be legal six days a week, it should be legal seven days a week.
That’s not to say our current laws and regs on hound hunting are perfect. Maybe there are ways it can be better managed to keep both hound hunters and landowners satisfied. (Good luck figuring that out, though!)
The same goes for the exception for public land. The only reason to be supportive of that compromise was because, once the ban was lifted on private land and it became clear to the general public that it was no big deal, the ban would likely also be lifted on public land.
For those of you who want to boycott license buying you seem to forget that landowners who hunt don’t have to buy a license (and therefore are also not being counted as “hunters” if they are only considering hunters to be those who buy licenses).
This was a classic case of going for too much too quickly. The way to get this passed is to FIRST get BOWHUNTING (or crossbow hunting) passed for Sunday hunting, get people used to the idea of Sunday hunting and that the world didn’t stop revolving as a result of it. Then, gradually move to black powder, then general firearms.
What possible objection could these kooks have for banning BOWHUNTING on Sundays?
Bob H, you make good points but to answer your question the opponents would probably go right back to the sabbath argument, because with bow hunting the safety and noise arguments would certainly not hold water. The noise part is obvious, and as far as safety no one’s going to get accidentally shot with a bow from a quarter mile away. After all, getting as close as possible to your game is essential to bow hunting.
There’s another thing that burns me about the actions of this house committee….these four gentlemen vote to essentially kill this bill but do not have to give any specific data, statistics or fair reason to the public for doing so. Probably because there is so little to present, if any at all.
Can someone who is in support of the ban explain to me why hunting is banned on Sundays, but fishing isn’t?
Or stated differently, for those of you who support a Sunday hunting ban do you also support a Sunday fishing ban? And if not, why not? What’s the moral/ethical difference?
It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Are you really surprised? This one will have to be challenged in court to make the change. Any volunteers?
Walt
@ Bob H
By Boycotting Virginia 2012 hunting season will get their attention by several ways.
1) Economically- Over 270,000 Virginians that’s an average of $70.00 per person. Not to mention Sporting gear directed toward hunting not being sold. That’s a lot of lost revenue for the state and jobs. Just as the Boycott in 55-56 40,000 people spending $0.10 to ride a bus in a city brought about change.
2) Rights of the Land Owner regardless if they buy a license or not which some land owners do they still buy material catered to hunting. And No man should be told when to hunt on land that they pay taxes on. Someday we all may become landowners what then?
3) Equality why should we pay $4.00 to hunt and fish on Public Land when Horse back riders, hikers, bikers, picnickers, and the casual walker get a free ride while we have to pay?
No I say take our money and spend it else wheres. If politicians fear the backlash of hunters not spending then they will give land owners the right to do as they please.
Then they have to come 100% and give all hunters their dues. Don’t forget the past higher licenses.
Tell me how that’s working out for you? About the same for me it sucks!
Don’t buy a hunting license for the 2012 season. In fact send it back to those knuckle heads that’s laughing at us while they go out and have a great time on our tax dollar.
Unity!! Strength in numbers! Stand your ground! Boycott Virginia’s 2012 season!
Karl — There are basically three groups that support the Sunday hunting ban.
–Animal activists. They don’t support any hunting. Or any fishing. But they know they have no chance of doing anything about fishing. So they fight hunting. Nothing is going to change their mind.
–Non-hunting outdoors enthusiasts. They like the idea of having a “quiet,” “safe” weekend day for hiking, bird-watching, etc. Most of these folks are reasonable, and if they can be shown that Sunday hunting will not affect safety, they are fine with Sunday hunting. Heck, many birders I know are vocal deer hunting supporters because deer have crushed good bird habitat in so many areas. A couple weekends ago in our Sunday Horizon section we had a Point Counterpoint feature on the subject. Commonwealths Attorney Don Caldwell was pro Sunday hunting, and his logic was absolutely spot on. Bob Peckman, an active member of the Roanoke Appalachian Trial, wrote the counterpoint side. His column was a perfect example of a reasonable approach. He basically said, if you can show me that it’s not dangerous, I won’t have a problem with it. The educational efforts of the Sunday Hunting Coalition went a long way to doing that, at least with legislators, this winter. I sure as heck tried through this blog and my columns. And hunters can continue to do that in the future in our daily dealings with our friends and associates who don’t hunt. I want to stress that many of these folks are not even aware of the Sunday hunting ban. Many also are not aware that there are just a few Sundays where firearms hunters are out in any noticeable numbers at all. Again, these people are reasonable.
–Hunters. They have various reasons, but many are thinking about themselves. Some are retired or have jobs that allow them enough flexibility that the option of hunting on Sunday is not important. They appreciate the day of rest. They may have personal religious beliefs. I think many of these folks could be persuaded to support Sunday hunting if they were able to step back emotionally and look at the issue purely objectively. As for houndsmen, we must continue to remember that it’s not all hound hunters. The membership of the Virginia Deer Hunters Association is evenly split on the issue, and many of them are houndsmen. Some of those probably oppose it for the above mentioned reasons. So those who fight Sunday hunting for fear of an anti-hound backlash are a minority. I’m not sure if there is a way to get them to support Sunday hunting, in any fashion. Again, as I wrote above, to accept Sunday hunting with a “no hound hunting” provision would be an admittance that hound hunting is potentially problematic. Yet, because they claim as their rationale every other argument (but not the fear of backlash), they have painted themselves into the proverbial corner.
Walt — Sounds to me like you just did!
Amatuer — I hear you on the boycott idea. I’ve heard it from others, too.
It’s tricky, especially since the DGIF finally came out in support of lifting the ban.
Let’s say that a boycott effort results in a 10 percent drop in license sales. (It won’t because too many of us love hunting too much.) The DGIF budget would take a hit, which means services to hunters (and anglers and boaters) would also take a hit.
Meanwhile, the folks in PETA and the Humane Society of the U.S. are dancing the jig.
Another option for a grassroots approach is to send letters to every Senator who voted for SB 464, thanking them for their support. And letters to every Senator who opposed SB 464, urging them to take a closer looks at the facts between now and next winter. And do the same with members of the House, starting with the seven members of the subcommittee that killed the issue this year. They obviously are hearing from Sunday hunting ban supporters, so it’s important for them to hear from those who support equality for hunters.
I left out another option, one more akin to Rosa Parks refusing to move from her spot on the bus and one a friend of mine is already doing.
His kid is busy all day on Saturdays in the fall with sports, so he sometimes takes his kid hunting, on their land, on Sunday. He doesn’t spotlight. He hunts during the established seasons. He doesn’t violate bag limits. He doesn’t want to get charged and challenge the law in court. He just wants to go hunting with his son.
@ Mark Taylor
If 270-270,000 hunters in states that don’t allow hunting told those feeble politicians, they weren’t buying hunting licenses. What are they going to do?
Were talking $70.00 multiplied by 270,000 hunters per 7 states. Because those other 6 states are going to follow Virginia….What politician wants to face that? Not a one. Money talks and you know the rest.
Somebody’s butt will be out of office.
To quote Thomas Jefferson
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Only our government loves money. Take away the money, then you have a toothless dog unable to eat a steak.
Mark I copy your last, butI’m Pissed!!!
Mark Please post those politicians that voted against lifting the Sunday Hunting Ban…
I would like to send them my last hunting license and tell them I’m no longer willing to participate in the Virginia hunting season until the ban is lifted.
And I encourage all of those that ticked-off like me to join in and let them know that we won’t tolerate being step on or over any longer.
Mark- Excellent anology. I would support this person’s actions all day long. While not legal in the eye’s of the Communist-Wealth of Virginia, I feel certain this is going on alot more than people realize. The electronic checking system makes it very easy to harvest on Sunday and check it on Monday. I have absolutly no issues with this at all. Until the day comes when one of those greedy House Reps pay my taxes and care take my farm, they can pucker up and kiss me where the good Lord split me.
Remember Ronald Reagan how he got Russian to “Tear down this wall”! A lesson we should all remember.
Sunday Hunting Ban is no different.
Getting back to basics with School House Rock “I’m just a Bill” view at the 2:18…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0&feature=related
Hunters attention span.. Bowhunters Blog.
Sunday Hunting has died. Replies: 10 Views: 176
The Duggars. Okay to have 19 kids? Replies: 158 Views: 1,145
Any reason hunters got shafted? Some things are just more important.
Karl…hunting isn’t banned on Sunday, it’s just more restricted on Sundays than other days. Hunting’s definition is broad….and Sunday hunting opportunities are expansive. I think most of us think of hunting with only our chosen hunting method in mind. So, it’s likely that when we think of hunting, we think of deer hunting only…or bear, deer and turkey hunting.
As far as how fishing compares to hunting…..I believe it’s entirely emotional. Fish aren’t as attractive to some, as say a deer, or wild turkey…..and we can’t see fish. i think it’s kind of out of site, out of mind?
As I’ve written on numerous website forms and have written to various columnists:
I can’t believe this… SB464 failed in the General Assembly…
My wife had to get up early yesterday morning to open the daycare center where she works. Over in the west end of Richmond, right near Gayton Rd and Pump Rd., she hit a doe with her Chevy Cobalt!
She’s okay. Everything will be okay. She’s still a little upset, but it could have been worse!
The doe took off to parts unknown into someone’s yard. Her Chevy Cobalt has a busted grill, dented hood, and no sign of really severe damage (thank God). We didn’t want to drive it, and had it towed to the Chevy dealer.
NOW ISN’T THIS JUST IRONIC… SB464 GETS SHOT DOWN AND MY WIFE HITS A $&#^% SUBURBAN DEER ON HER WAY TO WORK!!!
I AM HEREBY OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCING THAT I AM DONE HUNTING IN VIRGINIA. THANK YOU, GENERAL ASSEMBLY… VIRGINIA HAS JUST LOST A HUNTER! I’M DONE!! I WILL NOW GO UP TO UPSTATE NEW YORK TO MY SISTERS & BROTHER-IN-LAW’S FARM AND GO HUNTING UP THERE INSTEAD.
So Sunday hunting goes down again, oh well, now I won’t have to choose, I’ll just go fishin!
@ The Amatuer…
SB464 was tabled 4-3.
Ayes:
Del. Plum — delkplum@house.virginia.gov
Del. Lewis — delllewis@house.virginia.gov
Del. Wilt — deltwilt@house.virginia.gov
Nays:
Del. Ware — dellware@house.virginia.gov
Del. Wright — deltwright@house.virginia.gov
Del. Edmunds — deljedmunds@virgina.gov
Del. Farriss — delmfariss@house.virginia.gov
Mark your buddy that takes his kid out on his own property has much more relevence to our Sunday hunting law than we may know, or relize.
Our fine Delegate R.L. Ware, and his retired counterpart from Gloucester, back in 2005 or 2006 co-patroned a bill that was passed, revising code 29.1-521 (VA’s Sunday hunting code), making it legal to be at a place where you would hunt, and on Sundays, while in possession of a firearm, and not be charged with hunting on Sundays. In the Eastern part of VA, the “word in the woods” is that this revision was sought by constituent landowners that were looking for a owned property Sunday hunting legal loophole…..and “out” if you will, if or when they got caught hunting their own land.
Amatuer
Prices are as follows:
Archery (non rut): $2500-6 day guided
Archery (rut): $2800-6 day guided
Gun (Shotgun and Muzzleloader): $2100-6 day guided
*We also have special prices for handicap hunters also!
*Feel free to contact me at anytime!
Thanks
Max
As you can see Mark I’m taking this very serious.
Oh well, I guess we’ll all be having the same discussions again later this year as Im sure it’s going to be revisited again. As for me most of you know I’m kinda neutral on the issue. If it ever passes then I’ll embrace it,if it doesn’t I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I can take it or leave it. I stll say the bigger argument should be that all non-hunters using public lands as we do should also be made to pay for their use of the land as well.
I think they should allow hunting hunters on Sunday..love to bag a few of you.
TJ — That’s what she said.
I just don’t think the leadership of the VaHDA gets it. They really think that by blocking Sunday hunting, magically all is going to be well.
If you look at a lot of the banter on published articles and the different hunting forums, the most inflammatory topic is hunting with hounds. Actually, let me clarify that, deer hunting with hounds. Killing the Sunday hunting legislation is not going to change that. It is going to continue to be a hot item for the next year and for years to come. Every time you try to discuss this topic you get one of two responses, “a few bad apples” excuse or bow hunters trespass too. Neither argument ever addresses the discussion at all. It always reminds me of a little kid throwing a tantrum with their hands over their ears screaming, “I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you!” If I was a hound hunter, I would be worried because this battle for Sunday hunting has torn the hunters in this state even further apart.
Kirby Burch took a shot at the pro Sunday hunters with his open letter to Virginia Sportsmen and Women regarding the fox pen bill; “Most notably absent in the fight were any of the people fighting to allow hunting on Sunday” and “I point out that the sportsmen were not united in this fight, not to attack those organizations and groups but to urge their members to work for united action and efforts.” He does this while leading the charge against Sunday hunting, the antis didn’t have to do anything at all when the VaHDA does it all for them. Mr. Burch, do you honestly think we are stupid? Do you think your actions were unifying in any way? I expect the antis to try to kill a bill that opens up our state to more hunting; I didn’t expect a fellow hunter to do it. Kirby even had the gall to quote Sir Winston Churchill, “an appeaser is one that feeds the crocodile in hopes that they will be eaten last.” Well Mr. Burch, you fed the “crocodile” Sunday hunting to avoid the focus on your group. So answer this Mr. Burch, how exactly do you expect those of us that were fed to the crocodile to come to your defense WHEN changes are forced on deer hunting with hounds? Yes, I said “when”; you can jump up and down all you want however it has been made very clear this year that you have no regard for anyone else but yourselves.
I think I finally figured it all out. For the longest time I couldn’t understand why fellow hunters wouldn’t want to hunt on Sunday, even after the provisions were put in that they asked for. It all comes down to personal property rights and that is something that scares the VaHDA. If personal property rights are finally recognized in Virginia then something will have to be done about the “trespassing dogs” and their owners hiding behind the “right-to-retrieve” law. Well gentlemen, you have a right to be scared then. Although Sunday hunting did not make it through this year it isn’t going away. It will continue to make strives forward until it finally passes; next year or 5 years from now. When it does and the state finally recognizes property rights, who are you going to turn to for help? Do you honestly think that the rest of the sportsmen in Virginia will rally to your cause after you cut us off at the knees?
VaDGIF specifically asked for Sunday hunting to help curb license sales and breathe new life into hunting. Hunting numbers are down throughout the country, not just here in Virginia. The blame for the failure of this bill lays solely with the VaHDA. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the VaDGIF add a permit requirement to those who want to run dogs as a means of increasing revenue. I think that would be great way for the VaDGIF to show you how they feel about your efforts!
To all the hunters out there that use hounds for deer, the ball is in your court. You’re allowing the VaHDA leadership to paint you into a corner that will eventually leave you with no support. The time to police your own ranks is coming quick; those “bad apples” need to be dealt with. The VaHDA leadership needs to be shown the light! How much longer do you think hound hunting can survive with absolutely no regulation? The general public spoke out against Sunday hunting quite a bit this year and your dogs were mentioned many times. The general public might not understand the differences in how all of us hunt however they do understand that the “dog hunters” invade their privacy every fall. You can’t keep on this path for long, the time is coming…the question is, do you want the rest of us fight for you or not? As of now, I don’t think you do.
As a parting shot, good luck to you Mr. Hackett in your upcoming trespassing charge! Maybe you will finally understand what property rights are about!
I guess what frustrates me more than the outcome of our past 20 years of pro-Sunday hunting bill failures, has been a complete failure over those same 20 years on the part of our legislature to take even the slightest action to address any of the objections that were voiced 20 years ago, and again voiced this year.
Number one complaint in the eastern part of the State…..hounds and trespassing hound hunters. What’s Virginia’s reaction been to that complaint. Well, we’ve seen chase increases, including Sundays, for bear hound training twice, and two raccoon chase increases….and VA continues to dscriminalize trespass for hound retrieval. I am very pro-hound, and very pro-Sunday. But let’s address our hound hunting objections so that Sunday hunting has a chance for adoption. Safety…..let’s see, other than failing a muzzleloading, blaze orange requirement bill. I can’t recall anything regulatory that may have an impact on safety. Our animals need rest……see the first comment. Our people need rest…..see the first comment.
SB464 did more to address objection than anything any legislator has brought forth in 20 years…..but it was still too dangerous, too trespassy, and too unrestful……but what it really was, was it was Sunday. Who in the world is going to put up with 6 days a weeks of abuse, and for 20 days, just to have one peaceful day? If something bothers me…..it always bothers me. I wasn’t born with a Sunday on/off switch.
If Kirby Burch, and the vahda are truly concerned that adding Sundays is a threat to the future of hunting with hounds……they need to take a very close look at exactly how hunting with hounds Monday through Saturday, and chasing on Sundays threatens hound hunting’s future.
During the hound study conducted five years ago, the threat of hound hunting’s future was well documented……but vahda has done nothing to address the threat, except fight hunting on Sunday.
There was a very clear message sent by the Senate…..which was: while we don’t all support hunting on Sundays on private properties, we find more support for this, than we find support for hunting with hounds. In Virginia this is a historic legislative development. Because for the first time, we saw greater support for Sunday hunting, than we saw for hunting with hounds.
We all know that Sunday hunting will be revisited next session, and we could assume that the Senate will support legislation, but how will the House justify nonsupport?
The lobbying from the hound hunters organization against sunday hunting has got me a bit angry. I dont hunt with hounds but have always supported their ability to do so. However, I think that is over. I’m going to be an outspoken critic of hound hunting. Their actions were purely selfish and now so will mine. They have to know that there may be unintended consequences to their lobbying efforts against sunday hunting.
Also Ive heard that chairman Ware who voted against sunday hunting but owns a hunting preserve. For those in the know, is hunting allowed on privately owned preserves on sunday?
@ Tony R
I’m sure you don’t agree with my ideal, but if you offer the Senate no alternative except the total loss of money then they might capitulate.
The thing I see is people are willing to wait and see. Really!? You said that you’ve been waiting for Sunday Hunting for over 20 years. Many hunters in this state have been waiting and just gave up and surrendered or died off.
It’s not fair and a new approach needs to taken. If VGIFD is faced with revenue, loss impacted but hunter participation. Politicians will change their tunes.
They will first want to give Land Owners their due and hunters can keep the pressure up for an out right lifting of the ban.
I under stand this divide and conquer crap that’s happening with the hounds issue. But if we as in all hunters get on the same page for Sunday hunting we can iron our issues with new regulations afterward.
That’s a Win Win for everyone.
Honestly I believe that if a group of 40,000 people can make a difference the thought of 200,000 people not hunting would scare the hell out Virginia’s Senate.
Unity, your thoughts on boycotting the 2012 season. Since I’ve been posting this thought, Ive been offer free range of 2 separate properties in Tennessee.
People are listening and watching to make a profit where Virginia is not.
Maybe what hunters should do is go down to their local courthouse every Sunday during hunting season dressed in hunting gear with weapon in hand (gun, bow, etc.) and peacefully circle the place for a few hours. I bet that would get their attention and show what support there is for Sunday hunting.
What is the fine for hunting without a license? Maybe everyone should hunt without one next year and see what happens. Semi civil disobedience…
Rob and Tony:
My applause for your comments could only be greater if I had more hands. I just hope that the VaHDA can hear it too…
“Hound hunting will be the end of hound hunting”.
I’m grateful to those legislators who listened to hunters and non-hunters views on this important topic. They obviously saw reasons to preserve a safe and quiet day in the woods for folks. Thanks to everyone who helped keep the Sunday hunting ban in place for yet another year.
As a hunter and landowner, this is simply a matter of private property rights, freedom and liberty. We have the tyranny of government (federal and state) who tell us how we can use our private property, and for what purpose. Look no further than the pernicious Wickard v Filburn SC decision that told a Virginia farmer he could not grow wheat on his own property for his own consumption. And we continue to roll over to the tyranny of government and plunder of our fellow citizens who insist that the power of government should be used to take from us what we have earned by the sweat of our brow.
Here in the cradle of our revolution, and the home of Patrick Henry, the tyrants in Richmond (and DC) continue to steal our liberty and freedom. We must never give up the fight to protect liberty, freedom, and private property.
Hearing people suggest breaking the law really concerns me. The legislature’s failure to act is pretty infuriating, but I think that is one of the things that really hurts hunters and fisherman when it comes to this kind of legislation. So many hunters, I meet love to brag about shooting illegally, not checking animals, exceeding limits, and other transgressions. I know in many cases this is just talk, but to non-hunters it really sends the wrong signals particularly when you are trying to convince them that it is safe to share the woods. Unfortunately when hunting buddies tell such tales too often we chuckle and go along with them which sends all the wrong signals.
One thing has become crystal clear in this: Hound hunting and the myriad problems associated with it have come front and center thanks to the VHDA’s efforts to kill Sunday hunting. If you look at the comments that follow various newspaper articles on Sunday hunting, you will see a common theme: hounds, the hunters who use them and the rotten behavior they exhibit. Some of the comments centered around safety, but even those who were fearful of hunters were most vocal about hound hunters. Had the VHDA simply banded with their fellow hunters, as they have asked regarding the fox penning bill, this issue would have passed quickly and quietly. As someone else said, Sunday hunting won’t be the death of hound hunting, hound hunting will be the death of hound hunting. The VHDA continues to stick its head in the sand.
Rosie, the legislators who voted against Sunday hunting did not have your interests in mind. They were beholden to the deer hound lobby.
All you have to do is follow the money:
http://www.vpap.org/committees/profile/home/637
@ Jeff
I’ve been down there before were a person was charge after the fact of shooting the Deer decoy, I think it was $2,000 per empty shell casing. So let’s past on that one.
@ Zeke instead of that send your expired Virginia Hunting license to Delegate Ware and join me in Boycotting Virginia’s 2012 hunting Season.
If those shameless bipedal mutts see that we mean business they will see the light of their empty offices from the street.
@ Rosie
Explain your point to Butch Ammon’s Wife.
I agree that you shouldnt be able to hunt on Sundays. I am not a hippie i love to hunt as you can see by the picture of my deer in one of Mark’s articles. I dont beleive you should because it says in the Bible your not supposed to work on Sundays. I know this is not work but if you arents supposed to work on Sundays what makes you think you can kill (animals) on Sundays.
Thanks for the comment, Christopher. And thanks for being honest about your reasons. I doubt anyone here would take issue with someone choosing to not hunt on Sundays for religious beliefs.
One of the reasons many adult hunters would like the choice of being able to hunt on Sundays is so they can go with their kids, many of whom are really busy on Saturdays with sports and other commitments. We need more of you guys coming in to the sport!
Chris, If you are worried about the Bible’s teachings, you need to not hunt or fish or work or do anything on Saturday. The commandment refers to the Sabbath which is Saturday. You also can’t kill if you want to obey the 6th commandment.
Yes I know, most Christians worship on Sunday to honor Christ’s resurrection day. And, we consider the 6th commandment to be referring to killing people. But the thing is, people interpret the Bible differently. I haven’t seen anywhere in the Bible that says we should switch the day of rest to Sunday. I also know of no biblical teaching that says leisure activities are work. Some folks think leisure activites are work I guess, but many of us do not.
I believe it is right that you or anyone who believes it is wrong to hunt or fish on Sunday can choose not to do those activities personally. But why should everyone who doesn’t believe that way be forced to another person’s interpretation.
As we all know, even though religious beliefs were the original reason for the hunting ban, religion has little to do with it today. When the ban is lifted (which will happen someday), people will be able to choose to hunt or choose not to. Don’t you think that would be fair for everyone?
Thanks RJ. I’d suggest that we all contact the DGIF, and request that all forms of hunting be restricted during Sunday hours throughout the 2012-2013 hunting season….seriously. Not as a way to punish any hunting interest group….but as a way to provide our wildlife a true “day of rest”. This authority lies entirely within the DGIF, with two exceptions…..raccoon hunting until 2:00am, and shooting preserves. Neither of these would change because both are coded regulations. But all other Sunday hunting forms are controlled by the DGIF.
I’m confident that the vahda would support these changes based on their continual Sunday hunting objection. Trappers have never lobbied one way or the other….so it really wouldn’t impact a trapper if we did grant our wildlife that day of rest. Let’s trip our traps on Sundays, let’s keep our hunting dogs in the kennels, and the foxes and coyotes in our enclosures could certainly appreciate a resting day. I hope others will agree…..rather than fight “City Hall” let’s prove to city hall that they are absolutely right. Contact the DGIF, and plan to attend the regulation public meetings…..let’s get involved in the process.
Then maybe when we revisit easing our Sunday hunting restriction, Kirby Burch could see the importance of Sunday access through the eyes of someone that’s been excluded. If the DGIF removed Sundays, and held steady…..then Virginia would have a true Sunday hunting ban. I’d wager that the folks that killed this year’s bill would find a way to do something they’ve found impossible in the past…..they’d find a way to suggest, to their constituents, that hunting on Sundays is important to those that hunt, and should be allowed.
Also Ive heard that chairman Ware who voted against sunday hunting but owns a hunting preserve. For those in the know, is hunting allowed on privately owned preserves on sunday?
Comment by ducker — February 17, 2012 @ 9:13 am
Mark,
Is this true..can you check it out?
Gaining A Better Understanding of Why The Vahda Fights Changes in VA’s Sunday Hunting Regulation: Code 29.1-521
A. The following shall be unlawful:
1. To hunt or kill any wild bird or wild animal, including any nuisance species, with a gun, firearm or other weapon on Sunday, which is hereby declared a rest day for all species of wild bird and wild animal life, except raccoons, which may be hunted until 2:00 a.m. on Sunday mornings. However, a person lawfully carrying a gun, firearm or other weapon on Sunday in an area that could be used for hunting shall not be presumed to be hunting on Sunday, absent evidence to the contrary.
Many may see the above listed code (29.1-521) as a “No Sunday Hunting” law, when it’s actually exactly the opposite. What this code does, is guarantees that hunting on Sundays shall remain lawful, so long as that hunting doesn’t involve weapons, and removes all intent for wildlife mortality. It actually guarantees through law, exclusive Sunday access for hound chasing activities, and does do by prohibiting hunting with firearms.
First, it’s important to know that VA is the world’s leader in hound chasing liberties, interests, and participation. The vahda knows this, and wants VA to maintain it’s number one “chasing” statis. The vahda feels a strong duty to ensure the tradition of chasing’s future, and ensure Sunday chasing’s exclusivity as well. They fear that if Sunday hunting regulations are eased…..chasing interests will diminish, resulting in a “cross over”, if you will, from chasing to other hunting methods. Sunday access is critical to chasing’s strength, and future.
So, while on the surface it appears that vahda opposes Sunday hunting, their real interest is to maintain a longstanding tradition of balance between Sunday hunting involving firearms, and Sunday hunting devoid of firearms.
HB95, bear hound training, which I strongly supported, is great evidence of the vahda’s true Sunday hunting interests. If the vahda was truly opposed to hunting on Sunday, they would have asked that language be added to 29.1-521 that would remove all lawful access to Sunday hours for all hunting forms.
I understand the vahda’s foundation for opposing Sunday hunting increases, but I completely disagree with their foundation. Generalizing our Sunday hunting regulations would place no restrictions on the existing liberties associated with chasing on Sundays.
Right now is a prime example of the infighting that is hurting our sport. I said in an earlier post about changing minds in Richmond but in reality its the minds of some hunters that needs to be changed. I have always said that our hunting/fishing regulations need to be based on science and science alone. Personal philosophies need to be put aside with this issue, we do need to look at the pros and cons but the cons in my eyes are preposterous and I feel those opposed are simply grasping at straws. I can go sight my gun on a Sunday but I cannot spend a few hours in a stand and hunt? Too many double standards are present and this silly outdated blue law needs to be put to rest!
Fair treatment, Mark?? Hunters own the woods 6 out of 7 days from October to January! My family and I won’t risk morning or evening walks during this period, though our neighbors have given us just as much permission to walk their woods/fields as their hunter friends from the city/suburbs.
I appreciate the civility and good sense you’ve shown for most of this debate and hope future hunters follow your lead. But regarding fairness, it is obvious that the wilderness loving non-hunter–who is given a mere 1/7 days to freely walk the woods– is the one who should be complaining.
Deadender — First, I appreciate the kind words regarding my approach to this. Civility is the best way to approach this and I really have tried to keep the focus, as much as possible, on facts and figures rather than on emotion.
Regarding the fairness, your comment reflects how those on different sides of this issue can interpret the fairness issue.
Even if hunters did own the woods from October to January, that would mean that non-hunters own the woods from January to October. Plus EVERY Sunday. Non-hunters do outnumber hunters, so maybe they don’t deserve equal treatment, right? Well, that’s the argument that’s been used (and is still used) to justify discrimination against other minorities forever.
And I also question how much those non-hunters really are getting out there. For example, during November, four of eight group hikes offered by the Roanoke Appalachian Trail Club were offered at locations where there is NEVER any hunting. Many of the region’s most popular outdoor getaway locations (the McAfee Knob hike on the AT, for example) are in similar spots. A friend was telling me that his wife opposes Sunday hunting because she wants to be able to walk their dogs on a neighbor’s farm where there is hunting. Yet he said she hasn’t walked the dogs up there for two years. Not once. So, while she thinks hunting on Sunday would impact her behavior, it has absolutely no impact on what she is really doing.
I strongly disagree with the “own the woods” assertion, anyway. There is really only one month (November) when firearms hunters are out in any noticeable numbers. There is some gun hunting in December, but much of the most visible hunting in Western Virginia is bear hunting with hounds. There are not many people who do this. In Eastern Virginia in December there is deer hunting with hounds, and that is visible and, as discussed here plenty, can lead to conflicts and hard feelings. I do also want to mention that there is a spring turkey season in April and early May. It covers five weekends and turkey hunters do actually utilize public land (I would argue more than deer hunters in these parts). The fact that no one ever talks about conflicts with hunters in the spring shows what a non-issue it is. There is also firearms squirrel hunting September through January. And grouse hunting through February. Again, very few people are out there for those seasons.
I also want to address the “risk” to which you refer. I readily admit there is a perception among non-hunters that sharing the woods with hunters brings risks. It wouldn’t be such a common argument if it weren’t a concern. But the “risk” is simply not there.
Yes, there have been tragic instances of non-hunters being involved in shooting accidents. Those instances get media coverage, as they should. However, they get far more attention than given to other fatal accidents — in part because hunting accidents are so rare. In Virginia, there tends to be one of those accidents every few years. The only fatality in the past decade was that shooting in Ferrum. Again, it was a horrible, heart-wrenching tragedy. But we’re talking about one fatality of a non-hunter over a decade. I will say, and any hunter will say, one fatality is one too many.
By the same token, there have been in the range of 720 to 750 traffic fatalities in Virginia every year, according to statistics maintained by the Virginia State Police. According to the Virginia State Police (http://safevahighways.org/), there have been 74 fatalities already this year. Are there more people out there in cars than “walking in the wilderness”? Of course. But the bottom line is that if you are a Virginian, you are far more likely to be killed in a car accident than by a stray bullet from a hunter.
What about other outdoors risks? According to statistics from the National Lightning Safety Institute, 19 people were killed by lightning strikes from 1990-2003 (http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/fatalities_us.html). So more than one a year. I am not a probability whiz, but that seems to tell me that if you are out there walking around, you are more than 10 times as likely to get killed by a lightning strike than by a hunter’s bullet.
We saw in this year’s General Assembly that when our lawmakers consider the facts, they can’t justify the Sunday hunting ban. There remains a minority of our legislators who continue to ignore the facts in favor of kowtowing to special interests. They are able to get away with this for one reason, and one reason alone — hunters are a feared, misunderstood minority who use guns, which many people find scary (though, in the hands of hunters, they are not to be feared).
Thanks for sharing your concerns, and I hope the above information helps alleviate those concerns.
Mark in regard to the Ferrum accident, I would argue that it was not a hunting accident but a poaching accident. The individuals involved were on land where they were trespassing and pretty much ignoring all hunting laws and ethics. This makes them poachers and not hunters. The Sunday hunting law does not affect poachers since like common criminals they don’t follow laws anyway.
@ Deadender
Your assertion is entirely wrong. Private property owners own the woods on their land 365 days a year, not 6 days from October to January. I bought and paid for the land I hunt on, pay property taxes on that land, and spend my own money and time to improve my land. And somehow it is “unfair” to you for me to engage in a lawful activity on my private property on Sunday, or any day, for that matter. Good grief.
What is wrong, and an anathema to freedom, liberty, and private property rights, is for you to assert ANY “right” to control or restrict lawful activity on my property through the force of government. In fact, one of the few legitimate functions of government is to PROTECT private property rights, and certainly not to give them away to someone who has no legitimate interest in that property. You will hear no squawk from me on public land hunting restrictions. However, I will never willingly cede the rights inherent in property that I have purchased through the fruit of my labor to you or anyone.
I’m not worried about the legal, ethical hunters, including my family. My concern is with the scofflaws who will shoot anytime, anything, anywhere they choose and laugh because they are SO hard to catch and convict.
So? Hunt legally on Sundays in the prime time, please! Hunters we know about might just help us stay safe from the scofflaws, by virtue of their presence and their witness.
Zeke….The guy was a hunter that happened to be poaching, and he could have poached everyday of his life and it never would have been an issue probably. But when he pulled the trigger….he was a hunter…..one who misidentified his target….pretty plain, and simple. He’d still be in jail if hunters were judges.
Mark great post. Here’s something that we all should like to know. National Hunting and Fishing Day, VA’s Youth Deer Hunting Day, and The Appalachian Trail Society’s “Family Hiking Day” all fell, this year, on Saturday, September 21st. So the Applachian Trail Society placed families of hikers in our National Forests, at the same time our Youth Deer Hunting Day placed families of hunters in these same areas. Not one issue, conflict or complaint…..and I’ve researched extensively to find something.
Take a Kid Mountain Biking Day, and Virgina’s opening day of archery season, both fell on Oct. 1, again without a blemish.
National Birding Day, always falls of January 5, which tends to be one of VA’s most active deer and bear hunting days….again not an issue.
Why, if ther is so much concern, aren’t these events scheduled on Sunday? Apparently, not so much genuine concern. I’ve followed SH legislation closely for 20 years. Only, and always, when Sunday hunting is on the table do these concerns surface. Now that Sunday hunting’s threat is gone, not one concern is voiced. No more articles by Ms Condon, writing about a bullet whizzing by her head. Sunday’s hunting restriction cure all of the ills that exist Monday through Saturday. It cured those ills this year, just like each of the past 20.
We really need to put some pressure on our lawmakers. We need to force them to prove that they believe these concerns are genuine, by making them adopt laws that address these concerns. But they won’t…..but why…..because they can’t prove that hunting is that dangerous. And when the examine hunting’s dangers, and make changes in law, they obligate themselves to place those same restrictions on nonhunting activities that are as dangerous as hunting. Horses would be gone from the National Forests on Sunday…..but why? Every hunter can control a gun…..but no rider has the strength to control a horse.
If hunting on Sunday is too dangerous, then it all needs to be eliminated. Why would our lawmakers agree that it’s too dangerous just on Sundays?
There is a wilderness land mass with “0″ population density and twice the size of Rhode Island in our National Forests. Rhode Island has one of the country’s highest population densities, but has figured a way to make hunting on Sunday work. With all the legislative brilliance that VA has, it can’t prove that it’s as smart as Rhode Island’s lawmakers. How can we not figure a way to get some portion of our hunters, and portions of other outdoor enthusiasts to have a peaceful, safe coexistence? It troubles me as a lifelong Virginian to think about how much our refusal to budge on Sunday hunting has punished us all.
But even with Virginia’s longstanding Sunday hunting policy, Saturday is and has been our most participated outdoor activity day of every week. So how can we justify our Sunday hunting policy? We can’t……plain and simple…..we can’t!
You Just Can’t Make This Stuff Up!
The four Delegates on the House Subcommittee (Wright, Ware, Edmunds and Fariss) that killed the bill to allow Sunday hunting on private property with landowner’s permission also voted for HB95, which allows bear hound training on posted private property without the landowner’s permission in the dark and on Sundays.
Come to think about it, I guess these Delegates are consistent. They have absolutely no respect for landowner property rights.
Yup, bans on Sunday hunting are the work of churches and blue laws.
The hypocrisy of it all is they insist it’s to be a family or church day…. yet in many of the same states that ban hunting, they have casinos like Virginia, you can purchase alcohol and go to the track to squander family fortune on games of chance…many run by the states.
I say the biggest losers in the Sunday hunting ban are the guys that work 5 or 6 days. Unless they want to rob the family of vacation days…. when do they get to hunt. Never…. so they go buy beer and get drunk.
LOL You can’t take your kid hunting… but you can go golfing with your buddies and tip a few beers… or go watch the ponies and make a few bets. Oh you can go fishing a boating and just about any outdoor activity you can think of… but you can’t go hunting.
You can slaughter your hogs or steers… but you can’t go hunting. It’s just stupid. The only pro I see is that all the casinos and race tracks that are open put money in the state coffers.
Stupid outdated laws maintained by self important idiots.
I grew up in SWVA and have since lived in NC and MO. Now I am back, for a short spell in N.VA. I mtn bike, trail run, hike, hunt and fish and am still stunned that there is zero Sunday Hunting. I do not identify with the Tea Party, but the group for small and limited government, where are you guys on this? Can’t even hunt private land?
Missouri allows Sunday Hunting on public and private land. Not one equestrian, mtn biker, hiker was hurt or killed by a hunter last year or the year before. I would have to check the records on previous years but my guess is the answer is zero. When I asked a game warden when I moved out there if I could hunt on Sundays on public land he looked at me like I was crazy….of course you can, why wouldn’t you be able to?
Small government! No regulations! Politicians are scumbags….if you voted for one of these tea baggers and they voted against Sunday Hunting they are hypocrites.
Deadender,
Just ask your neighbors to prohibit hunting on their land on Sundays? Why not let the landowner decide what is the “fair” use of their land instead of the government?
VANCMO — I GAVE someone that crazy look when I moved to Virginia and they told me that there is no hunting on Sundays.
Rick Layser — Well put.
Tony — As usual, a very logical post from you. Just one problem: It relies on LOGIC. The good news is that many of our lawmakers actually considered logic this year. But, as we all know, it took only four to undue that.
Will next year be different? Again, it only takes a few people in key spots.
i have a friend that works 5 1/2 days/week,leaving him a TOTAL of 15 hours to hunt deer.why would he want to pay $46 for his license/tags,plus gas for this? i asked him about Sunday hunting,and he was ALL FOR IT! in fact,he said he would even get back into bow hunting if this were to happen!(HELLO,VDGIF,,,ANOTHER $23 FOR YA!!!) i am one of the lucky ones that has a friendly dairy farmer who lets me(and my 2 sons-another $92) hunt his farm,and HE is not against Sunday hunting! this crap obout animals needing a “day of rest” is just that,crap! are anti hunters dumb enough to believe that deer won’t eat a farmer’s crops,a little old lady’s flowers,or run in front of somebody’s car/truck/mini-van/suv on a Sunday? NASCAR can run 2 races on Sundays in Martinsville,keeping people away from church,so,why can’t we hunt on Sunday?i say,if the Govt, is gonna regulate some of us as to our Sunday activities,get everyone. no more mall sales,beer sales,Lowes/Home Depot sales,or lottery sales on Sunday. that way,people that work 5 1/2 days(or six) a week would not be able to do what we license,gas,breakfast at Hardee’s buying people do,,,try to enjoy life a little!
The four Delegates on the House Subcommittee (Wright, Ware, Edmunds and Fariss) that killed the bill to allow Sunday hunting on private property with landowner’s permission also voted for HB95, which allows bear hound training on posted private property without the landowner’s permission in the dark and on Sundays.Comment by Rick Layser
Rick, you prove this rather than just post BS. This is a blatant lie.
HB 95 Bear hound training; allows training of dogs to hunt bears to occur from 4:00 a.m. until 10:00 p.m.
Mark great post. Here’s something that we all should like to know. National Hunting and Fishing Day, VA’s Youth Deer Hunting Day, and The Appalachian Trail Society’s “Family Hiking Day” all fell, this year, on Saturday, September 21st. So the Applachian Trail Society placed families of hikers in our National Forests, at the same time our Youth Deer Hunting Day placed families of hunters in these same areas. Not one issue, conflict or complaint…..and I’ve researched extensively to find something.- Tony Rutherford
Tony, I would also like to post that this is the last day of bear training season that was in before the Youth Deer Hunting Days which I COMPLETELY support. Thanks for posting this.
When I was doing research for the story I wrote early in this process with our Richmond reporter, Mike Sluss, I talked to people in Ohio, where Sunday hunting was approved (after a heated debate like we’ve seen here).
In Ohio, the National Audubon Society’s Christmas Bird Count is on the same day as a very popular late firearms deer hunt opener. Guess how many problems and conflicts? Zero. I asked the owner of a hiking store the question about what his hikers thought about sharing the woods with hunters. He said, “I don’t hear a thing about it.”
As I’ve said countless times before, conflict with non-hunting outdoors enthusiasts is a NON-ISSUE. There is fear and concern, but there need not be.
As for the hounds, we all know there are conflicts. We all know that many hunters who use hounds (I’d go so far as to say the vast majority) do so without ever having conflicts with other hunters or private landowners. But there are some.
I personally think if there is Sunday hunting, there should be Sunday hunting. Public land included. Hounds included. (SB464 was a step in the right direction, and it would have made it a lot easier to get public land hunting open in the near future.)
Like excluding public land gave credence to the assertion that there would be conflicts among hunters and hikers, while that is not true, excluding hound hunters is also risky. It would support the assertion that their chose type of hunting — which is perfectly legal, while some might not like it — is lesser than other types of hunting.
To think that Sunday hunting would be the one thing that would eventually lead to the demise of hound hunting is taking it too far. Would it help shine light on the idea that perhaps Virginia’s hound hunting program could be better regulated to try to minimize those conflicts? Maybe.
But if hound hunting gets hit with serious restrictions down the line, houndsmen won’t be able to blame Sunday hunting alone.
Oh, Richard is right on the hours of hound training. The original bills sought all-night training but the bill was amended so the hours are 4 a.m. to 10 p.m.
Thanks Richard. Our argument isn’t with the people that treasure hunting or chasing with hounds, nor is our argument really with the vahda. They did exactly what all of us are doing, or should be doing…..in that they fought for what they believe is their right. I fought the fight with them, and have since the “Hound Study”. I don’t own a pack of hounds, but I have great respect for the man that does. Lots of time, energy, expense and thought go into raising a good pack. I honestly hope hound hunting has a place in VA forever.
Our argument is directly with the House committee reps. SH is a very sensitive social issue. But is hunting on Sunday wrong? It could only be wrong if hunting on any day was wrong. Any reason, with the exception of religion, would justify that we have a choice to hunt on Sunday. Richard, this is not a criticism of chasing. But this is what I can’t understand, well actually I understand it well, why would our House say no to a private property gun hunting bill, and say yes to a public/private property bear hound training bill, when both involve Sunday access, and both pose risk? The answer is money. Take a look at leadership in the vahda, and the Virginia Fox Pen Association, and you’ll find the answers.
But any legislator would have had to of prepared, and well before they accepted their seat’s responsibility, for the set of circumstances that always present themselves with every Sunday hunting bill. A set of circumstances that demanded that a socially unpopular law be adoppted on the basis of legislative principles. Legislative principles didn’t win, interest in money, and fear of losing control of the payee’s won.
Richard Sprinkle,
How is what Rick Layser said a lie? Even on the longest day of the year sunrise doesn’t come to Virginia until after 5:30 and it doesn’t set until about 8:30. If the hours are 4 a.m to 10 p.m., doesn’t this mean that “HB95 . . .allows bear hound training on posted private property without the landowner’s permission in the dark and on Sundays”. Is there something else that I am missing? By the way, this doesn’t necessarily mean that its a bad law. I am just curious as to what he said that was wrong?
Rich,
HB 95 Bear hound training; allows training of dogs to hunt bears to occur from 4:00 a.m. until 10:00 p.m.These are the exact words of the bill.
Rick says “which allows bear hound training on posted private property without the landowner’s permission .” This is not mentioned. To me he is implying that you can go on posted private land any time you wish to train a dog and this is not true. Nowhere in HB95 is private land mentioned or is training on private land.
Richard VA’s retreival laws allows for hounds to chase onto unowned private property, and the hunter has the right to access that property for retrieval. If they’re hunting on the property where they were cast, and cross a property line they are hunting on another’s property. In essence, our House failed a Sunday hunting bill that had strict private property provision, and at the same time passed a Sunday hunting bill that had liberal public, and/or private land access, without any ownership consideration……except that you have to have legal access where you’ll cast. My argument isn’t with you, or the vahda…..it’s strictly with our House committee. How could they rationalize telling a landowner that they could not access their own property for hunting, and at the same time grant another hunter access to that very same property for hunting? It doesn’t matter that one hunting involves guns, and killing…..it’s entirely about prohibited access to the person that owns the property, and permitted access by anyone that doesn’t. I don’t care what side of the fence you’re on…..this is simply unjust. It’s a complete hustle of, and by our House committee.
Tony and Rick,
This post was about HB 95, not about right to retrieve! Don’t hijack the post with a change in your agenda.
I grew up in the country on a farm and I know how we treated people and how we were treated, cows got out, people had dogs, people hunted and neighbors were neighbors and helped each other. If a cow was out you called the people and helped them get it back in. If a dog was in your yard you petted it and it went on it’s way, it was just a dog, not a convicted felon. Nor was it’s owner. The dog didn’t know it had done anything wrong anymore than the cow. One of my neighbors had a cow loose last year that got in my yard and made some tracks, so what? Should I have shot the cow and invited you and Rick down for a barbecue? If a person is doing something wrong, call the law, for sure there are plenty of laws. Enforce what is there. That has nothing to do with HB 95.
Richard. I completely disagree, it is all about HB 95 and how it was passed and who supported it. It was passed because there was support of the VAHDA. SB 464 was not supported by VAHDA and was not passed. This is pretty clear, the 4 representatives of the house committee only voted for what VAHDA supported. Is that not the case? If VAHDA supported SB 464 do you think it would have been passed? That is a serious question and I would like to know your answer.
Richard…..my argument is not with you, any chasing activities, and not even with the vahda…..it is directly with those that made the decision to pass HB95, and fail SB464. HB95, made perfect sense in many ways. It increased hound training access at the most ideal times….early in the morning, and in most cases later in the evening. Both of these times are best suited for training……it’s cooler, damper and the winds lay down. I think there is no reason that we shouldn’t train all hours of the training season. I know how difficult it is to raise a good pack. If the puppies come to late, and you run them….you risk bone and joint issues. If you don’t run em’ early enough they may not take. I don’t own a pack, but I’ve rubbed up against enough of them to understand. I don’t have an issue with retrieval, although I believe if retrieval isn’t addressed we’ll see restrictions soon of hunting with hounds.
My sole issue is that our lawmakers said you can’t go upon your property and hunt with a firearm…..yet at the same time someone’s hounds could, and the houndsmen could follow. It has nothing to do with chasing, or retrieving, and everything to do with being prohibited by law from access to property you own, and the State granting access to another that doesn’t own it.
To me our Sunday hunting laws are like prohibiting riding horses on Sundays when using English tack…..even on your own property. But, at the same time the State says so long as you ride with Western, you’ll have access to Sundays, plus you’d have access to lands owned by people that ride English.
Richard it ain’t about hunting, or chasing…..it’s entirely about be banned from your own property, but not having the ability to ban others.
Answer these two questions Richard 1) What would happen to hunting with hounds if it were restricted to only property owned, or where written permission existed? 2) What would happen to hunting with hounds if there was no right to retrieve?
Richard, as a hound hunter this is my concern. Our House said, no you can’t hunt your own property on Sundays. There are lots of hunting landowners that feel like they got the shaft…..and many believe this House decision violates their property owner rights, and they are very angered by the vahda’s stance. This decision sets legislative precedence. So, if the law says they have no hunting access, it would seem that no one would have hunting access?
So what happens to hunting with hounds when the people decide if they can’t access their own land, then hounds and followers shouldn’t have access either? What happens when an anti-hound hunting legislator sponsors legislation prohibiting hounds from access to other’s property? It honestly concerns me that this will happen. The stage has been set for this through the vahda’s continual opposition to Sunday hunting, along with the continual failure of VA’s Sunday hunting legislation.
What would be the General Assembly’s position? They said no to hunting on private property. If forced they’d have a hard time saying no to someone else having access for hunting activities to that same property. I’m concerned that the vahda is leading hound hunters on a suicide mission. Sundays aren’t a threat to hound hunting, the vahda is hound hunting’s biggest threat.
Aside from hounds and handlers, what other activity grants another access to unowned property? Hounds and hunters have an incredible liberty, and vahda’s annual lobbying against Sunday hunting threatens that liberty much more than anything.
Government can’t prohibit the property owner from access, and grant a nonowner access…..but it’s done so for decades. Two-thirds of the Senate saw that hunting on private property made sense, but the House saw that it didn’t. But the House and Senate both saw that training bear hounds made sense……and VA has always said that chasing fox, and raccoons on Sundays has made sense. How can government say no when a bill has strict private property provision, and yes when the property provision allows liberal access to all other’s property.
The hound community needs to take a close look at this.
Nino, HB 95 just changed a very few hours for training.SB 464 was about hunting, not training, on Sunday. There would have been no hound hunting on Sunday anyway. I do think there were WAY bigger players against Sunday hunting than VHDA and you should know who they were. No, I do not think it would have passed and nowhere have I said I agreed with the position the VHDA took. That is why I remained neutral on the issue. In my opinionHB 95 and SB 464 are apples and oranges.
Tony, I also do not have any personal argument with you. I think you have conducted yourself very well. Now for your questions:
1. If you take away dog hunting, hounds, quail, grouse, rabbit, turkey, fox etc. all hunting will soon be over. Do you think one group is going to die a slow and quiet death and let others go on with their chosen methods. We both know this just isn’t going to happen and is JUST what the anti’s want. Where I am from probably 90% of the dog hunting is on public land.
2. Right to retrieve is blown way out of proportion in some ways. I will also say some people DO abuse the way they use this PRIVELEGE and I wish every one of them that are breaking the law would be punished by the law. I have had very few, only one as a matter of fact, bad encounter over retrieving dogs. I try to do everything possible to abide by ANY landowner’s wishes and try to not have to even enter their property. Unfortunately sometimes this happens and I need to do it. 90% of the time if you approach the land owner respectfully and with courtesy you will have no problem in my region. Don’t we both want the same thing, and that is to get the dog back in a safe and timely manner?
Once again, to both of you, I am in no way defending the VHDA and do not know why they took their stand. I am not privy to the inside information of their members wishes.
The only day that I have to enjoy the outdoors is on Sunday afternoon. I work all week, just as hunters work all week. I own forested land and want a safe day to hike & play. I have knocked down deer stands on my property and it is almost impossible to keep trespassers off the land as I do not live on the land.
I think I have an idea. I think that everyone in favor of Sunday hunting should get out in the woods every Sunday of season. Dress the part, full camo and orange, tree stands and calls, the whole 9 yards. Just don’t carry a weapon. Take your camera instead. With all the traffic in the woods you know the wardens phones will ringing off the hook. There is no laws against being in the woods, even public land on Sunday. After a year or two of chasing these possible sunday hunters, the wardens will be begging for Sunday hunting to be legal. Kill ‘em with kindness. We(I support Sunday hunting) do not have to break the law to protest.
Richard if vahda, and the Farm Bureau didn’t oppose SB464, I’m confident it would have passed. If vahda and Farm Bureau would have opposed HB95, I’m confident it would have failed. With respect to a day of rest, there is little difference between chasing, and hunting with intent to take. If killing is wrong on Sunday, it would have to be wrong everyday. One, SB464, had strict private property provision, while HB95 didn’t. I strongly supported both, eventhough I’ll likely never own, or train bear hounds. It’s hunting, and we all should support the cause. Yes, SB464, and HB95 are apples and oranges…..but so are any two styles, or methods of hunting. Trapping coyotes, and hunting coyotes with intent are apples and oranges. We can’t hunt coyotes on Sundays, with intent or even chasing only, but we can trap and kill them with a fireram. Our Sunday hunting policies make no sense.
Restricting hound hunting to within the boundaries of owned or permitted property…..ends hound hunting, unless we erect fences like we have in chase enclosures.
Removing retrieval rights would cause the “dying out” of hound hunting.
Sundays are not the threat to hound hunting that the vahda leads people to believe. But, access, and rights to retrieve are a real threat. The vahda just fought the right to hunting access on owned property. Other’s have stood back, and took it on the chin…..I’m confident that won’t be the case any longer. People are not going to allow the government to restrict their access to property that they own, and allow others access. The vahda very obviously recognizes that hound hunting is threatened……but that threat exists today, and has since before the hound study. The vahda leads it’s community to believe that hound hunting is a right, when it’s truly a great privilege. Excessive liberties, always results in loss of privilege……and hound hunting, regardless of Sunday hunting’s disposition, will be no exception.
The vahda’s position on Sunday hunting boils down to money, and a captive clientele. If they keep Sunday hunting choices limited, they assure themselves of revenue. Their greatest fear is that Sunday hunting will give people options that they’ve never had before, and when they weigh the options, hound hunting will lose out. Not because of lack of interest, but due to lack of time, and lack of financial resources. It’s a lot less expensive to hunt without hounds, than it is. But, the money is mostly tied to fox pens, and hound expendatures. If you research the vahda, and fox pen associations, you’ll find the answers. The Farm Bureau shares great financial interest as well. The FB is a strong lobby force…..but we never see them oppose chasing on Sundays……but why?
Dan
That is the most logical comment I’ve seen on here yet
Tony and Amatuer take notes
CH
Sally, I apologize on behalf of all hunters. But, by VA’s own statistics it is very safe for you to access wilderness areas during hunting seasons. Yes, there have been nonhunters that have been shot….these incidents are inexcuseable, and tragic, and if hunters were judges the penalties that these hunters faced would be much stiffer than the sentences they were given. But here is where the 6 to 1 argument fails greatly. VA licenses about 225,000+/- hunters, and perhaps there are 150,000+/- licensed exempt hunters…..but there are 2,000,000 VA gun owners. Without any change in our Sunday hunting regulations, VA permits recreational shooting access on all Sundays……and that access isn’t limited to licensed hunters or gun owners……it’s open to anyone. So hunting can’t be your only source of fear/danger, but they are. As far as the treestands…..in over 40 years of hunting I’ve never experienced this taking place. In that same time I’ve encountered two hunters that were trespassing…..one was during spring turkey season, where the hunter eased over the line by about 50 yards, and the other was this past season, where the hunter came 200 yards across the line, apparently to keep the dogs from chasing towards the road. But, honestly, who would tolerate 6 days of abuse, just for a peaceful Sunday? I hunt, and if I saw the abuse that so many comment about I would become very proactive, and I’d force our lawmakers to do something. If trespassing is the issue, suggest that your legislator carry a bill that increases trespass penalties. I’d be all for a hunting trespasser that’s found guilty, having their hunting, and driving privileges revoked. To sit back and not take action, makes little sense. If you find another treestand, don’t remove it, notify the warden, and they will catch the builder of the treestand while they are in the act of hunting, and trespassing. If “they built it they will come”. They will most likely be in that stand on the first day of archery, or muzzle loading season……Barney Fife has enough detective in him, to catch them in the act.
For 20 years we’ve read these same comments…..Sunday is the only day I feel safe. But in that 20 years, no one has made any effort to address their safety. This completely puzzles me. Why would people live in fear for their lives for 6 days each week of hunting season, and for 20 years, but never suggest any change?
Since 1982, VA has experienced about 12,000 drunk driver related fatalities. Oddly, we failed to pass hunting on private lands on Sundays, but we passed laws this session that allow State ABC stores in our smaller communities to increase hours of operation on Sundays. Drunk drivers are our greatest trespassers, and our greatest threat of injury, and death…..but we only concern ourselves with hunters that trespass, and the risk posed by hunters. But why?
CH…..thanks for the advice. I’m an avid hunter, and if success is judged on killing a deer, or turkey, I discharge my weapon through hunting activity, about once every third of fourth hunting trip. I’m maybe between average, and above average.
In four decades of hunting…..I’d estimated that I’ve discharged weapons about two-hundred and fifty times……today I went to where I hunt, and shot about three-hundred and fifty times. So in just one day I shot more than I have in forty years+ of hunting. Our Sunday hunting policies influence lots of recreational shooting on Sundays…..there were four fella’s that I hunt with that shot hundreds of times each, too. I wouldn’t target shoot on Sundays if I could hunt.
But, thanks CH for giving it your best.
bye more ammo, good for you, as usaul fifty words to say two I’m an avid hunter myself and hunt on Sunday in all of the states I hunt now, please reread Dans Post and follow his advice
good shootin and tight lines to all
@ CH thanks for taking this blog comments to 100. Far as you hunting I doubt it. All you do is troll.
Trolling for attention aka Sammy Bass.
One thing you can look for with the increased deer activity is the transferal of deer ticks in populated areas. One hunter from the NH/MA area posted…
With the winter we are having this year ticks are already really bad. They are being described as an epidemic. What are people using for tick prevention? My buddy told me that one of his son’s friends had 30 ticks pulled off of him after 4 wheeling.
So when you look at those lovely deer think of the parasites they carry.
CH…..the point had nothing to do with shooting, and everything to do with a lack of reaction to Sunday shooting by game wardens. Yesterday was a rare shooting event. But, when I shoot recreationally, it’s almost always on a Sunday, and it’s never gotten the attention of a game warden.
If I had to guess, I’d guess that you and Dan are working together. His comment makes little sense, as does your’s. It’s not unlawful to hunt on Sunday, that includes any Sunday, or anywhere statewide…..nor is it unlawful to shoot recreationally. Those that understand VA’s Sunday hunting regulations are trying to get hunting on Sunday legalized, nor are that asking that a ban on hunting on Sundays be lifted. There’s no need to legalize something that’s already legal, nor is there any need to lift a ban, where no ban exists. Those that understand the regulations are simply asking that certain restrictions be eased. This legislative session, our Senate recognized this, and passed a private property Sunday hunting bill by a two-one margin. The House recognize this same bill as a threat to hound hunting, and attempted to justify the bill’s failure on a concern of posed risk.
Perhaps hunting isn’t important to you, but I hope that equal liberties are. I hope that when a matter arises that you feel passionate about, those that you try and alienate here, will turn cheek and support your interests.
OK last post..I don’t know Dan just agreed with him. I have no idea why you are argueing with me. I totally support Sunday hunting in a no resticted way, I’ll put my trophy wall against any you may conjure up so my hunting accomplishments need not be questioned nor my commitment to the sport. All I said was its a good idea to go out and spend a Sunday in the woods without a gun until the limited game wardens tire of responding and beg for it to be legal. Until the hunters of VA get together on this issue it won’t happen.
Good luck and good huntin
While I see the point behind the idea of going out in orange (but not armed) on Sundays, I wonder if it would result in many calls. Think about this: About 85 percent of deer hunting is on private land. So if you go on the private land you own or where you have permission to hunt, the people who see you will be the people who know you. They ain’t callin’ the cops.
If you dress up in orange and go wander around on public land, like national forest or a wildlife management area, you will be seen by … nobody.
We all know that, despite all the hand-wringing and claims of user conflicts from the anti-Sunday hunting crowd, there just aren’t that many people out “recreating” on public land on Sundays in late November and December.
And even if you were seen by a random hiker or bird watcher, many of them have no clue that there is no Sunday hunting. Seriously. Ask people you work with who are non-hunters if they realize that Sunday hunting is not legal here. I asked my non-hunting friends that over the past couple of months and was astounded how many didn’t have any idea. And didn’t really care, either.
There is a very small, very vocal minority of people who are trying work the “fear,” “conflict” and “danger” argument. In a recent email, one of those guys even smugly claimed that they were responsible for getting SB464 killed in the House after it “flew under the radar” to pass the Senate. (Yeah, I got a good laugh at that one, too!) There may be a few who truly are phobic about hunters, but most, like the above-mentioned critic, are simply annoyed by hunters. They good and well that teh safety argument simply doesn’t compute when you look at stats and reality. A majority of the Senate saw through that this year, which is why SB464 passed that chamber. Eventually the House is going to get it, too.
That small group of anti-Sunday hunters will have a tizzy for a bit, then it will all settle down when it becomes clear, as it will, that Sunday hunting is a non-issue in the whole scheme of things.
CH….I argued because you extended the invitation, when you stated “take note”……so I took note, and exception. You see about 6 years ago, our good Delegate Ware carried legislation making it legal to do everything Dan suggested, but in addition, the bill allowed hunters to carry weapons, and not be found guilty of hunting on Sundays. Unless, there was a fresh kill nearby, of course. I wrote Ware, and told him that the “word in the woods” was that he and another Delegate were approached by private landowners that wanted to hunt their own property on Sundays, but needed a legal loophole. Ware wouldn’t respond, but had his legal advisor do so. They asked me to go away…..but I won’t.
CH, hunters are together on Sunday hunting. I’d wager that 85% of hunters support Sunday hunting. Lots of landwoners support Sunday hunting too, because they know it means more lease revenue. But, it doesn’t matter how together hunters are, when our lawmakers take part in the hound/ag. lobby hustle. Mark, it’s not the deer hound community……most of them have abandoned vahda. It’s the money associated with hound activities, and the fear that if given another choice, many folks will get away from hound hunting. I’ve hunted in the Eastern part of VA for decades, and with deer hounds. Hound owners make up a very slight percentage of the overall hunting community. vahda fears loss of interest, and loss of revenue.
Good point as to who will call the authorities. Maybe the pro sunday crowd should do that as well. If something looks suspicious it should be reported. That is the key. Look suspicious. I do not suggest doing anything illegal.
Just a quick point, I just moved from N.C. but originally from VA. The Sportsman liscense there which included freshwater fishing, all big game,national forests, Everything. $40, and they started allowing Bow hunting on Sunday. that is a start there, but my opinion, how is it we can fish on Sunday, and not hunt? It should be up to the individual who purchased the highly overpriced hunting fees in VA or any state for that matter. The game we hunt fish has no clue which day it is. Now it is spring, smallmouth are gonna be cranking up with the turkeys, if I had a choice..Ill be chasing turkeys..its only a month long.
This very sad article sums up why some of us feel we are not safe in the woods during hunting season. Accidents happen and they are sometimes fatal. This is why some of us feel we need a day in the woods without guns.
Clifton Forge man gets 10-year term in hunting death
Burrell Hall had been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and reckless handling of a firearm.
By Duncan Adams
981-3324
COVINGTON — Burrell Hall of Clifton Forge never disputed that he shot and killed Travis Scott Persinger of Covington during a hunting outing near Low Moor in Alleghany County on Nov. 13, 2010.
Hall, 48, and his attorney, Bill Cleaveland, emphasized during a two-day trial in December and a sentencing hearing Wednesday in Alleghany County Circuit Court that the shooting of 27-year-old Persinger on Horse Mountain was a tragic hunting accident and not the result of reckless disregard for human life.
Hall said he thought he saw a deer through the scope on his rifle before he fired the shot that struck Persinger in the chest and exited through his back.
But a jury in December found Hall guilty of involuntary manslaughter and reckless handling of a firearm, and recommended Hall serve nine years in prison on the manslaughter charge and a year on the firearm charge.
On Wednesday, Circuit Judge Malfourd “Bo” Trumbo followed the jury’s recommendations on each charge and sentenced Hall accordingly to a total of 10 years in prison. Hall is currently housed in the Alleghany Regional Jail.
On the day of the shooting, Persinger was attempting to drive what the hunting parties believed was a deer into the range of a hunter. He was not wearing blaze orange.
Emotional testimony by Hall’s friends, family and fellow church members preceded sentencing, and both they and Cleaveland beseeched Trumbo to reduce the sentence recommended by the jury.
Nathan Goldberg said he and Hall had been friends for more than 25 years.
“He doesn’t have a mean bone in his body,” Goldberg said. “He’s got a heart of gold. The community is not going to be better off with Mr. Hall incarcerated.”
Goldberg said the shooting of Persinger had “crushed” Hall, and family members said they worried Hall was going to take his own life because he was so racked by guilt and remorse.
Hall testified that he “will be serving a self-imposed life sentence.”
He told Trumbo, “What you see is just a shell of what I once was.”
Hall also cited numerous health problems he said could mean that a 10-year sentence was a death sentence.
In turn, Alleghany County Deputy Commonwealth’s Attorney Ann Gardner reminded Trumbo of the grievous loss suffered by the members of the Persinger family and their friends. Several attended Wednesday’s hearing. The family had shared victim impact testimony during the sentencing phase of the December trial, and Gardner referred Trumbo to that testimony.
Although the trial jury found Hall not guilty of hunting while under the influence of an intoxicant, specifically marijuana, Gardner said evidence presented at trial suggested Hall’s apparent use of the drug within 24 hours of the shooting, according to one expert’s testimony, might have clouded Hall’s judgment.
Before the sentencing hearing began, Cleaveland presented several post-trial motions that asked Trumbo to overturn the verdicts and hold a new trial.
Cleaveland said he learned from one of the jurors that the panel had, in what Cleaveland termed an “experiment,” left the jury room during deliberations and taken the hunting rifle in evidence and peered through a window of the courthouse to investigate what they could see through the gun’s scope.
“Unwittingly, the jury went beyond the court’s instructions [for reviewing evidence in the trial],” Cleaveland said.
Trumbo overruled all the motions.
Cleaveland said afterward that he planned to appeal.