Check out Danny Dye’s 26-point buck!
I was talking the other day with a guy who does some hunting in Virginia’s mountains as well as around his home in the flatlands of Eastern Virginia. He was saying how he knows there are some good bucks in the East, but the West has more big bucks.
Though I have no personal experience in the East, I believe my friend.
Habitat, which features lots of agriculture, may be even better in the East for growing big deer. So why don’t they grow as many as we do out here in the mountains? One word: dogs.
The most critical ingredient for growing big deer is age. It is much more difficult to be selective in drive hunting, whether dogs or humans are doing the driving. There certainly are some large tracts in the East where there isn’t driving and there is a focus on Quality Deer Management. But it hasn’t caught on there like it has here, and it won’t while hunting with hounds remains a popular tradition.
Anyway, the East can grow big deer, and this is one of them.
Danny Dye was hunting on private land in Prince George on Dec. 19 when he dropped this brute, which Dye reported having 26 scoreable points, including a G2 that taped out at 14 inches. The Boone and Crockett green score, Dye said, was 193.
Here’s his story about the hunt:
“I was a guest of an informal hunt club that my cousin belongs to. First time on this property. We had finished our last drive of the day with our dogs. Another hunt club was hunting across the road and one of their hounds ran this deer to me. It came running quartering to me through some fairly thick woods. I shot it in the head and neck with No.4 buckshot at a range of about 25 yards and it dropped immediately. Needless to say the club that ran it to me were kind of downcast when they came to pick up their hound and saw the size of this deer. They were good sports about it,though.”
Congrats, Danny, on a super buck! I can’t wait to see this set of antlers next fall at the trophy shows!
February 13, 2013 - 12:02 PM
Wow a mainframe 10 but with LOTS of extras!!!!!!! Nice deer!
Mark, couple of points, give VGD a call and find out east vs west of Blue Ridge DMAP cooperators, I think you’ll find more in the East. Many dog clubs have DMAP programs and minimum size limit on bucks. I spent 13 years in the east (lived in Gloucester Co 1990-2003) and county for county, the east has far more older-age-class bucks than the west, they have so many more deer and so much country that is virtually un-hunted. Some of the best big-buck hunting I know of is on club land where dogs are used and some of my best bucks have come from dog deer hunts, in Gloucester, Sussex, Southampton, New Kent and Surry counties.
By the way, that’s a great buck, congrats to Danny!
Awesome buck!!
I grew up in Pulaski Hunting without dogs and, as you all know, its more difficult. Now I live in Albemarle and it is legal to use dogs. People around here abuse it and send dogs through adjacent property to run deer onto their own. It is very frustrating and I have no use for it and would not mind seeing deer hunting with dogs go away. I think it is more gratifying to kill a deer on your own merit than using hounds. Personal opinion.
Interesting point about DMAP, Walt. I suppose I am guilty of violating my own personal rule of drawing a conclusion based on my own personal observations (though I was also relying on observations from another hunter whose opinion I respect). I have a hard enough time deciding “shooter or not?” when I am hunting in a stand. I don’t know how guys can do it when a deer is running by them.
Good on ya Mark, decent response; as for dog hunting, I’m a fan, but I too have had my share of “disappointing” days; I owned 96 acres in Gloucester, mostly cutover, and some good deer called my place home (but that didn’t make them “mine”). Unfortunately the club that hunted the adjoining property knew this and we had a run-in or two. However, you can’t tar the whole crowd with one stick and the dog surely can’t read the posted sign. We have our share of slobs in the non-dog-hunting crowd too. It ain’t the dog that’s the problem, or using dogs to hunt; it will be a sad day indeed for all hunting if the use of dogs for deer hunting in the traditional dog areas is ever prohibited. And, by the way, just because you’re on a hunt, you don’t have to shoot; it’s not a contest. It doesn’t take much effort to look a deer over before you decide to pull the trigger. My advice has always been if you don’t like doggin’ for deer, don’t hunt where it takes place.
Wow! Can you approximate that deer’s age?
That just might be the most beautiful deer I have ever seen! Other Kevin, I would guess he is either 3.5 or 4.5, but would lean towards the older with the kickers like he’s got.
I have done my share of dog hunting both with and without clubs. My experiences over the years has caused me to ride more on Brandon’s side of the fence. While I know that some clubs DO have antler restrictions and try to practice QDM while doggin’, my experience, combined with what I hear/see from others’ experiences, is that a lot of the dog hunting is more along the “brown its down” style. Is there anything wrong with this? Absolutely not! The eastern part of the state has a bit larger population density of deer that would be just about uncontrollable without the large numbers of deer harvested using dogs.
However, I do have a theory that our state could be just as productive a “big buck state” as any of the midwestern states. This would take some big regulation changes that would piss off a LOT of people. At the same time, it pains me when someone holds up a 1.5 yr old 3 point and says, “Man I wish i could kill a big ‘un!”. It does take work and some sacrifice for that to happen.
Walt, I can see where you are coming from with your advice of “if you don’t like doggin’ for deer, don’t hunt where it takes place” and I would love to follow it! However, I think the places east of the blue ridge that are unaffected by deer doggin’ are very few and far between.
Thats 3 1/2 yr old, kickers have nothing to do with it. look at that tiny body. I shot a 1 1/2 old 8 point that had four stickers.
very nice deer,but im not seeing 193 boone and crockett.Sometimes pictures can foolyou so i will take his word fot it,never the less it is a great deer
Pictures can fool you, johnboat, no doubt. If that thing is a 160-class mainframe 10 (and those of you who have seen a 160-class 10 point in person know that is a seriously big buck) it would need more than 30 inches of stickers. Assuming it has 16 additional scoring stickers that seems possible because, clearly, some of those stickers are better than 2 inches. Hopefully Danny will take it to the Richmond show in August and get it officially scored and put on display for all of us to admire.
David: I want to agree with you. I killed a 200+ pound deer in Nov. 2011 that we guessed at 3.5 and looked similar to this one. I would have to see a better broadside picture to age him on the hoof. However, I do know that most eastern VA deer are smaller bodied than their mountain dwelling counterparts. Anyone know if there is any truth to the idea that as deer age they are more likely to gain nontypical points?
I hope he does the same, Mark! I would be interested in seeing his typical vs. nontypical score, too. I’m not a fan of deductions…
The dog hunters I know in Southampton County laugh at my little mountain bucks. After seeing the bucks they kill every year, I understand why they are laughing. I am sure it is like most places, if you don’t shoot the little ones they will grow old and big.
i dont want my earlier post to be taken negatively.This a great deer and anyone who likes to hunt mature deer will tell you that.With that said it takes a true monster to reach 193 boone and crockett. Maybe this will score that but im just not seeing it.im thinking mid 170s before the deductions kick in.Nice tine length ,nice brows.mainbeam length looks good ,not very wide.the stickers a few of them are a couple inches maybe 3 inches but not many and i dont think it has 16 stickers 2 inches or more,all in all a great deer that he should be very happy to have had a chance to see in the wild much less kill.congrats to the hunter
Definitely not a 193-inch B&C buck. An awesome buck for sure, but there is no way it will go that high. If I had to guess, I would have guessed a gross score in the high 160s. I think most of those points around the base are less than one-inch. Who really cares though, that is a great buck for anywhere, but really a great buck for VA.
RJ, good response. QDM is up to the individual; I am against strict state-imposed regulations for the purpose of producing older-age-class bucks. I managed some military areas that were under strict QDM, and although very successful in terms of bone, most hunters wanted after a period of time, to “just hunt”. Regulation is needed however, to keep the herd under control and to attempt to balance the sex ratio. Mark referenced my “deer regulation suggestion” in another blog, and it is this: drop the daily bag limit on deer. If you get six tags on your license, there is no biological reason that you shouldn’t be able to fill them all in one day. Most other states do this.
On the use of dogs, we agree to disagree. I would hate to see a 400 year old legal, ethical Virginia tradition regulated out of existence.
Age of the deer: the only 3.5 deer I ever saw with that kind of headgear came from Nebraska, I’d be surprised if it is less than 4.5.
RJ you are absolutely right, i did not give credit for the fact that this is an eastern deer. Mountain deer typically have heavier body weight and structure. You also brought up a good point about age and stickers. I have been watching a nice 8 point for three years now. I affectionately call him “Sky Scraper” He is approx. 20-21 inches wide and very high. his G3′s this past season look to approach 10-12 inches. During the 2011 season he was simply a beautiful 8 point, in 2012, he had grown identical stickers approx 2-3 inches long off the back of both G3′s. He survived the season as I have pic of him first week of January. it will be interesting to see if he grows more stickers this coming growing season. I woul gues this deer at 5 1/2 this year simply because I have been tracking him with trail cams for 3 seasons.
This thread has been interesting, huh?
I don’t know enough about antler scores to have a strong opinion on this deer one way or the other.
A few years ago I did a story on a guy who shot a 220-class non-typical in Illinois. I held the rack. It was awesome. It wasn’t super wide or tall. Just lots of mass and lots of points. From these views it’s just hard to get a sense of scale. In the shot of Danny with his deer you can see that his hand is pretty small compared to the rack.
Anyway, a couple points to think about. One is that, as everyone here agrees, this is an absolutely super deer, no matter what the score is.
Another thing is that if you throw a score out there about your deer, people are going to scrutinize it. That’s just the way it is. If Danny has it scored in a public show — and I hope he does because this is a deer people would love to see first-hand — we’ll know for sure. I wouldn’t be shocked one bit if this thing scored 190-plus. And I wouldn’t be shocked if it scored in the mid 160s.
Again, I’m clueless and happy to be that way!
RJ, research from U-Georgia and Mississippi State on pen-reared deer seems to indicate that non-typical characteristics are age-linked, most non-typical characteristics don’t show up until age 4.5 and older. There are exceptions to every rule, however. In any event, a fine buck, regardless of score!
Thank you all for educating a non-hunter. I am very interested in the discussion about scoring. Is there a link someone could provide that has good info on how a deer is scored? Or is there a good book/author someone could recommend I research?
I grew up in Northwestern Pennsylvania amongst many hunters. First day of deer season was essentially a local holiday up there. I was the most popular guy in the Sheriff’s Office where I worked because I didn’t hunt, so everyone wanted me to cover for them. I often heard discussions on scoring a deer, but never looked into it. Your discussion about this deer has rekindled my interest in how it is done.
I will likely never become a hunter (I do enjoy a good fishing excursion!), but as I said before on this blog, I fully support those who choose this lawful activity. Even though I do not participate, I do find these discussions very interesting. Thanks for tolerating this old, unedcuated bufoon.
Also, a word of thanks to all here who act like adults and somehow manage to keep the discussions respectful. There is another blog on this website that I used to follow, but too much name-calling and “my dad can beat up your dad” childish discussions, mostly from the moderator, for my taste. I got disgusted and came over here.
Body looks small. Looks like Bambi with a good rack.
If Danny is 6 ft tall then it is likely that the measurement from his elbow to his middle fingertip would be about 1 “cubit” which is about 19″. This deer does not appear to be 16″ in depth at the brisket. 120 lb field dressed max.
Just guessing.
As far as dog hunting goes, would one try to argue that beagles should not be used because if that were regulated out then there would be big rabbits everywhere and you could just go sit in a field with a .22 and get your limit? When dogs start on one deer it is not a given that they will be running the same deer after it goes through a clearcut that contains other deer.
I think the final score will depend a lot on whether it is scored as a typical or non-typical. If he is scored typical, his deductions would be crippling and take just about everything away from what this deer really is: a true VA monarch. Not knowing exactly how the non-typical scoring system works, I cannot say whether or not he might reach 193… but if Danny measured 193 with his tape measure then I say give him 193!! I hate deductions.
I thought I had something going with that age/non-typical points thing. Don’t remember where I read it or heard it, but it stuck. David, 10-12 in g3s?!?!? That deer must be absolutely gorgeous! I’m a big fan of symetry in whitetail antlers. I hope you can find his sheds as momentos on top of the photos!
Walt, QDM is something I have wanted to participate in for a couple years now. I just don’t have the access to the right type of property to do it (namely, private land where everyone else is of like mind). I think you are right that it would be wrong to tell hunters what they can and cannot shoot, especially on their own property. I was unaware of other states not having daily limits on deer, but it makes sense. Especially for out of state hunters, too. I wonder what the reason for the daily limit is here?
And yes, we can agree to disagree on the pups. While I do have a bad taste in my mouth about it, I don’t think I can say I would want to get rid of it completely. I can’t do that to fellow hunters, especially the good ones. But I think it could use some cleaning up, as could the “still” hunting community. The worste aftertaste comes from the way the VaHDA handles their lobbying, I guess.
Impressive rack for sure.
Comment to “Other Kevin”. Let me take you on an early spring morning hunt for a Gobbler. If you can’t get hooked on Hunting during that time of the year, then you most likely never will.
Mark:
At the Richmond show each year, I am amazed at both the size of the deer (neck/chest mounts) and rack sizes that are being produced in our central and eastern counties. Some of them are very impressive.
Scoring: there are several systems for scoring deer, the gold standard is from the Boone and Crockett Club (www.boone-crockett.org). VA has its own sytstem as does Safari Club International.
RJ, good conversation. Ditto on the VADHA. When I hunted in GA a few years ago, when you bought your license you got 11 deer tags, two either sex and the rest antlerless only. No daily limit. It makes sense, if you only have one or two days to hunt and need to shoot a number of does for herd control or sex ratio work, you can’t depend on the weather, and as we all know there are some days when the deer move. My wife is a teacher, only gets to deer hunt on Saturdays. The way the system is now, if she shoots a deer at 8 am, her day is over. Unfair.
As to QDM, you don’t need a big boundary of private land to pass up young bucks or shoot does. I say, shoot the deer you want to shoot; its the hunt, not the kill, that adds character to our lives. Other Kevin, glad to see you on this blog, as I’m sure Mark will say also.
The pictures definitely do not do the deer justice. I took those with my Droid Razr Maxx which turned out great but the best thing I did was take a video walking around the rack. That showed it’s true character. It was hard to get a good picture that showed all points of the entire rack from one angle. The deer was scored by a local friend that does scoring. Yes it scored 193 green gross. Anxious to see how it scores after drying. It was the first time I had taken him with me and boy did he have the horseshoe. I will note that the deer was taken in King George county not Prince George county as the article stated. On a spinach farm right on the Rappahannock river. We call him Popeye.
Other Kevin, it is very good to see you on here and participating! Its a breath of fresh air to see someone who hungers for knowledge from the “other side”!
Walt, I agree! I have always been curious as to how many dog hunters out there are true supporters of the VAHDA. I know that VAHDA has cited the number of “members” it has in the past, but I don’t think they were accurate.
Getting rid of the daily limit makes complete sense! If the goal is population control and a season is set, what does it matter when in that season the allotted number of deer are taken? I would love to get to the point where your wife (and you, and the rest of the hunters in VA) can hunt more than just Saturdays with her busy schedule. It is unfair, completely.
No, I don’t need a big piece of land to pass up bucks and shoot does (as I just started doing the past couple seasons). Where my desire for QDM has its downfall is that I only really have access to “public” land. Its the whole “if you don’t shoot him, someone else will”. Everyone’s idea of a trophy is different, not that that is a problem at all! Because I have never killed one (WHAAAT?!?!?), I am on a trophy hunt for my first doe next season!
Fantastic Buck ! Congrats !
Keep up the good work RJ, and good luck on the doe; I’m a meat hunter, if the Almighty wants me to kill a big buck, he’ll trot one by. As to public land hunting, every young buck you pass at least has that one chance to make another year, but if you want him, take him! Within the law, that decision is yours and yours alone. Be sure to send your regulation suggestions to the VDGIF. All hunters need to have input.